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Post by retirelap on Feb 21, 2012 16:48:47 GMT -5
Yea you can not have your local contract have language in it that gives you the right to bump other people out of work! Can't even believe you would suggest that. Your local covers your plant and your plant only! For your info LAP is not allowed to have headphones or earbuds at all.
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Post by bo862 on Feb 21, 2012 16:50:36 GMT -5
No Offence to anyone but sitting on the outside Now seeing all of this I have a comment to make. Everybody is talking about seniority, and bidding team leaders now without grandfathering them in. Why wasn't you doing this 10+ yrs ago when you made the teams leaders a popular vote with the MOA??? just wondering. That was one of My biggest problems I had when I was over there. For the same reason the retirees and new hires were sold out, because it did not immediately affect those voting at the time. This was put in place before 95 by heavy truck employees for the new clt area that would not be affected by the moa or team leader elections. The plant ran with 2 contracts for a while. This was handed to us by those with 17+ years seniority, and the bc at that time. The most important thing we can all do is stop selling out other members in the contracts just because it does not affect you.
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Post by fordmakesnosense on Feb 21, 2012 16:53:20 GMT -5
doesnt it say that a team leader would make a dollar and a half more on the hour also????that kind of makes a big difference also if you ask me
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Post by ktpgal89 on Feb 21, 2012 19:19:37 GMT -5
If I was Bob King or Jimmy Settles I would be on Scott Eskridge this morning like white on rice. NOT because of the outcome, but because of such a humiliatingly low turnout. If I was Bob King or Jimmy Settles I would want to know why. Clearly something is rotten in KTP. And I wouldn't trust the KTP bargaining committee's explanations, either. I would send international representatives into KTP with instructions to walk the assembly line on all shifts and get the explanation directly from the rank-and-file. This is really hard to believe, but in paint we were no really informed us of when the voting was. We were really surprised when the results were brought around last because our union people hadn't even mentioned it to us. Not one person on my team even voted or any one that I talked with on my shift did...that's almost 100 people in itself...
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Post by brenteskridge on Feb 21, 2012 19:37:29 GMT -5
My question to paint employees is this. Did you all get a copy of the hightlight book? If yes, then at the very top of the page in blue was the time and place of where the voting was taking place.
I ask this question not to argue whether or not you felt that you had enough time or not but to find out whether or not you got a contract book showing you all what you would be voting on. It also showed that the leadership would be over at the hall for 12 hours taking any questions that you may have on the contract.
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 21, 2012 19:38:10 GMT -5
Why wasn't B crew given the opportunity to vote after shift like the rest of the plant. Voter turnout is always heavy after shift. Seems like the voting window was a little small. When we elect our leadership is seems like we have days to vote. I think we should start having a 24 hour window to vote in our elected officials as well.
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 21, 2012 19:44:55 GMT -5
Tony & NV ,exactly ! I agree with both of you guys 100% It is the unions responsibility to support Seniority regardless of anything else. Even if it means risking his job! The only way this happens is for your leaders to have seniority. When people like Stone with a ton of seniority are your leaders, they are all about protecting seniority. Out here, it's about protecting majority...in the middle.
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Post by cobra8 on Feb 21, 2012 19:47:20 GMT -5
Just a thought, personally I did not consider it worth my time to walk all the way to the voting area or drive and park possibly far away to walk in and find a line( not much in in for me. uniforms next year, the slim possibility of getting something for attendance. But maybe more voting areas, like at gate 6,- paint, - stamping area might get a better turn out. This could help the B.C. on what direction to go.
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 21, 2012 19:47:49 GMT -5
doesnt it say that a team leader would make a dollar and a half more on the hour also????that kind of makes a big difference also if you ask me $1.50 over ARPs is how it was presented in the international contract, but they will tell you it's up to the local to set the hourly rate which is bullshit.
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Post by ktpgal89 on Feb 21, 2012 19:49:11 GMT -5
Tony & NV ,exactly ! I agree with both of you guys 100% It is the unions responsibility to support Seniority regardless of anything else. Even if it means risking his job! The only way this happens is for your leaders to have seniority. When people like Stone with a ton of seniority are your leaders, they are all about protecting seniority. Out here, it's about protecting majority...in the middle. That is so true!! We were told by our committeeperson that "senority does not matter" it's whatever the company wants to do....
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Post by 69boss302 on Feb 21, 2012 19:58:00 GMT -5
The problem that I hear most often from the people around me is that they dont trust the UAW period. They either lie to the membership or dont tell us everything. For example the 10:1 ratio on team size in the national highlights it says nothing bout this being decided at the local level, but after its voted in, thats when they tell us. The IUAW announces in the media that they wont settle contract til after the grievance is settled. Then they come to the membership with a crappy contract before they settle grievance. Then when the voting is not going good the first couple of days they start threatening the membership. Thats just a couple of examples, there are numerous others. Also Brent there was no point in going to hall to talk to your sorry brother and the rest of the sorry BC, because they are just gonna tell people what they want to hear. Which most times isnt the whole truth, just enough to maybe get them a "yes" vote. As far as I am concerned i will never vote for a contract the UAW presents because they have already screwed me and the membership enough!
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 21, 2012 20:00:17 GMT -5
The chickens have come home to roost.
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Post by bo862 on Feb 21, 2012 20:48:18 GMT -5
The chickens have come home to roost. Looks more like people making second accounts so they can bash the union and not reveal who they are.
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Post by brizzel on Feb 21, 2012 22:11:40 GMT -5
No need for a second account here. Our national agreement was manipulated by the international with the use of social media sites Facebook and Twitter. When have we ever spread out the vote over two works before? Fear mongering took what little advantage we had ad a union. By the time we voted, the decision was made for us. Our local agreement is given to us on a Sunday Monday 24 hours. Why not a Thursday Friday time frame? Because that would of made to much sense. Our union had lost its way, but it can get back on course by listening to the membership
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 21, 2012 22:29:47 GMT -5
Great post brizzel! Let's talk about team leader responsibilities in a new thread.
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Post by kessinger on Feb 21, 2012 22:31:07 GMT -5
Ok, too many have posted since last time i did to answer everything, but let me cover some.
Though the turnout was low, the issue voiced by those that took the time to vote (and thank you or doing that) will have their concerns addressed. My comment on the low turn out was to a concern that a whole lot more may show up then, with a different opinion. But, that remains to be seen. You said I let my opinion cloud my judgement, when I post here, I say things as I see them and don't post the most P.C. thing I can think of. Sometimes that includes me posting my opinion and that may not be popular. But, I am being honest with you.
I know you all like to revise history and act like we disrepect sen. by not having it set as a bid, but again WE WANTED THEM BID LAST TIME. We wanted it so bad we asked people TO VOTE FOR IT!!!!! And they did not, so yes it appears taht opinion has changed, but at least be HONEST about things and stop acting like this wasn't something we pushed for 4 years ago.
And One commented that we play to the majority, well you have toin the case of voting on a contract, since you have to have a majority vote it in, at least a majority of those that vote. One post will claim we do what we want then another post will say we play to the majority?
Another poster claimed we just say what you want to hear? Realy? You read these posts and think I just tell people what they want to hear? Realy? You must not read many of these. Marcus, Scott, and I, as well as many others have disagreements on here pretty regularly.
We fixed it last time to what the membership wanted, we will fix it again. The next proposal will have TL bids along with some of the other thing that need to be addressed.
The $1.50 being over arps. You never heard that from me, i have posted here stating that it would not be over ARPS. The national pay rate was lower than the ARPS rate we have received for years at KTP and the TL rate over that national rate is around $1.50. So if you feel lied to about this you will have to take that up with someone else, I have been clear about this.
As to walking areas, we walk areas all the time, granted the areas I walked were on nights due to being on nights right now, but the signal I got was not the signal that showed up at the ballot box, so not sure that process worked right. Some said they feel people may not want to voice their concerns directly to us, so we are meeting with the TL's ands asked them to get a pulse from their teams. Maybe people feel more comfortable with a messenger. As we see here, many prefer to post under a fake name, maybe its the same thing.
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 21, 2012 22:45:20 GMT -5
I don't know who is to blame for the TLs being elected, but it should have NEVER happened. Someone made this happen originally...if it had been a bid from the beginning as it should have, no issue now. No one should be VOTING on whether or not TLs are bid or not, bid from the beginning, end of story. But someone fucked it up somewhere...no one cares who, but please fix it. But leave out the grandfathering in or you will think they don't want them bid...they want them bid with no grandfathering.
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Post by trinitus on Feb 21, 2012 22:53:51 GMT -5
Try bidding them based on dept. they are in but only do this the first time then plant wide afterwards. Our leadership (at thet time) did this when we went to a tag relief syaytem years ago when we went to three crews.
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Post by Jr on Feb 21, 2012 23:39:13 GMT -5
I don't know who is to blame for the TLs being elected, but it should have NEVER happened. Someone made this happen originally...if it had been a bid from the beginning as it should have, no issue now. No one should be VOTING on whether or not TLs are bid or not, bid from the beginning, end of story. But someone fucked it up somewhere...no one cares who, but please fix it. But leave out the grandfathering in or you will think they don't want them bid...they want them bid with no grandfathering. There you Go That's what alot want! Where's My Like Button...... Lol
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Post by kessinger on Feb 22, 2012 0:12:46 GMT -5
We will fix it. And we are trying to figure out the grandfather issue. It is something the company is totaly opposed to, so we will have to work around that. Also be aware that the teamleaders that want them to be bid jobs obviously want the TL's to be grandfathered, so this issue will be splitting the pro teamleader bid vote either way it goes, not sure how to fix that but we will see if we can. We will have to try to come up with something.
I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS GOING ONE WAY OR ANOTHER........we have to sit down with the company to get the ball rolling. Just responding.
Trinitus, bidding them by dept. is also viewed as disrespecting sen., if you remember it angered a lot of people back in the day when we bid relief. But again not sure which way this will turn out, we will be starting fresh on this issue, but your concern is understood.
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Post by trinitus on Feb 22, 2012 0:20:23 GMT -5
I understand your point there Kess, but I was just thinking that even though some might think it is disrespecting SEN. I think it is a alternative to the grandfathering in. Also it gives a lot people a chance to bid for one of those jobs in there department. I was also thinking that some might get it and not have to train or train very little based on jobs they already know. Sfter the first time bids, then all future bids woul/should be plant wide. That is just something to throw around the table while talking.
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 22, 2012 4:30:40 GMT -5
Sometimes, when the Company is totally opposed to something, the time comes for a union leader to ask them, "So just how adamant are you really? Because I represent a membership that is ready to walk over these issues."
Awww... what am I saying? There for a moment I forgot that this is the same UAW leadership that recommended that I vote to give up the right to strike. My bad.
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Post by nvsked1 on Feb 22, 2012 11:14:44 GMT -5
My opinion.... TL should be bid plant wide from the start, seniority rules but that is up for the membership to decide. We are supposed to be a democratically governed Union so majority rules.
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 22, 2012 12:06:34 GMT -5
Looks more like people making second accounts so they can bash the union and not reveal who they are. Is that comment directed at me? If so I'll simply say this: I have walked a UAW picket line. Twice. Have you? No? Then I'd be careful about making loose comments.
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Post by mulewrong on Feb 22, 2012 12:33:54 GMT -5
All leader jobs should be bid, even in trades... AND 2 piece uniforms or coveralls available for all trades, trades should have their choice it shouldn't be controlled by the uniform Nazi... cost are the same for the company, heaven forbid we be comfortable while working
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Post by marcus on Feb 22, 2012 14:13:22 GMT -5
People should man up on here and post there real names.I have a great team leader but I still want them bid.
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Post by Ktp1989 on Feb 22, 2012 19:11:30 GMT -5
Bottom line when the contract was voted down 4 years ago and the members said they didn't want TL's bid...the union took that info and removed it and the contract passed. Now the members are telling the union we do want them bid and no grandfathering...so put it in and it will pass....period.
Seniority is all we have left...bid the jobs (all the jobs, no grandfathering)...end of discussion.
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 23, 2012 4:45:06 GMT -5
Bottom line when the contract was voted down 4 years ago and the members said they didn't want TL's bid...the union took that info and removed it and the contract passed. Now the members are telling the union we do want them bid and no grandfathering... so put it in and it will pass....period. I seriously doubt that. If the KTP BC foolishly concludes that 60% voted "no" and two thirds stayed away over a single issue they will see a second ratification defeat. This is one angry, cynical and disaffected membership. That took years to create. It may well take years to fix.
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Post by ktpgurl on Feb 23, 2012 5:11:57 GMT -5
I do NOT want TL jobs put up for bid. It's bad enough now to get rid of a bad one....2 years. And the majority of the people in my are area are against it. Everyone I talked to who voted it down did so because they are pissed off. About the national and the raises salary got. Too little too late...you bet...but we all voted NO for that too.
People are just pissed in general.
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Post by Ktp1989 on Feb 23, 2012 7:35:13 GMT -5
I do NOT want TL jobs put up for bid. It's bad enough now to get rid of a bad one....2 years. And the majority of the people in my are area are against it. Everyone I talked to who voted it down did so because they are pissed off. About the national and the raises salary got. Too little too late...you bet...but we all voted NO for that too. People are just pissed in general. They should have been more pissed when they brought that shit National Contract to us....but they let the IUAW scare them into taking it...now they want to stand up and be upset....over a Local Agreement?
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