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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 14:27:31 GMT -5
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Post by fordfan30 on Jul 11, 2014 18:06:29 GMT -5
It will happen eventually and the uaw knows it. I am not quite sure I am ready for it but there are times when it does seem tempting to lean that way. This will be another huge waste of our strike fund.
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Post by autoslave502 on Jul 12, 2014 12:19:19 GMT -5
Does this mean my Ford truck gets to add dents and dings from jettas and passats now? This union will do anything for a Buck eh?
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Post by rrisley on Jul 12, 2014 20:30:59 GMT -5
There are plenty of non union places for you to work at, with lower wages and less benefits. You don't need RTW to be non union. Oh wait you want the pay and benefits of union membership but don't want to pay your dues. Do us a favor if you want to "opt out" of the union, leave the UAW and Ford and find a place that is a magical non union shop. The day unions lose all power is the day we see wages fall and people who opted out will be the ones to thank. If you want to opt out you're not my union brother, and are worse than a line crossing scab.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 22:19:24 GMT -5
There are plenty of non union places for you to work at, with lower wages and less benefits. You don't need RTW to be non union. Oh wait you want the pay and benefits of union membership but don't want to pay your dues. Do us a favor if you want to "opt out" of the union, leave the UAW and Ford and find a place that is a magical non union shop. The day unions lose all power is the day we see wages fall and people who opted out will be the ones to thank. If you want to opt out you're not my union brother, and are worse than a line crossing scab. Tell me what the fuck the IUAW has done for you in the past ten years that the other non union shops hasn't given their employees. Take your guilt trip shit and stuff it up your ass. I have given blood sweat and tears and not gotten shit in return while the company profits. Ride your front seat at the UAW meetings with your head held high and be proud of being fucked. Maybe you will get a job of pushing a T shirt cart around all day.
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Post by rrisley on Jul 12, 2014 22:29:44 GMT -5
There are plenty of non union places for you to work at, with lower wages and less benefits. You don't need RTW to be non union. Oh wait you want the pay and benefits of union membership but don't want to pay your dues. Do us a favor if you want to "opt out" of the union, leave the UAW and Ford and find a place that is a magical non union shop. The day unions lose all power is the day we see wages fall and people who opted out will be the ones to thank. If you want to opt out you're not my union brother, and are worse than a line crossing scab. Tell me what the fuck the IUAW has done for you in the past ten years that the other non union shops hasn't given their employees. Take your guilt trip shit and stuff it up your ass. I have given blood sweat and tears and not gotten shit in return while the company profits. Ride your front seat at the UAW meetings with your head held high and be proud of being fucked. Maybe you will get a job of pushing a T shirt cart around all day. The company will give you a raise, the mean old IUAW doesn't want you to have one.
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Post by saugerman on Jul 13, 2014 2:28:25 GMT -5
oh boy the ol new hire to educate us again.......
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Post by rrisley on Jul 13, 2014 23:36:13 GMT -5
oh boy the ol new hire to educate us again....... When you act like you would have the same pay and benefits if you weren't union, and bitch constantly about the IUAW. What exactly would make you happy? You got the pay and benefits and now since you haven't had a raise in 10 years the optimal thing to do would be to strike out in your own, withdraw from the union, and get a raise out of ford like the maverick you are.
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Post by saugerman on Jul 14, 2014 1:58:45 GMT -5
Boy the union would sure would be happy if we where all sheep just like you...Keep drinking the kool-aid and believe that they give a crap about you..they don't..I smell a wannabe committeeman in the making...LOL
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Post by rrisley on Jul 14, 2014 14:59:09 GMT -5
Boy the union would sure would be happy if we where all sheep just like you...Keep drinking the kool-aid and believe that they give a crap about you..they don't..I smell a wannabe committeeman in the making...LOL So you are saying that you would have the same pay and benefits if you weren't union? You have yet to address my points.
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Post by Grimace on Jul 14, 2014 17:12:41 GMT -5
I don't know where some of the people on this message board used to be employed, but it must have been a pretty good place. I can’t imagine why they ever left? I keep reading these comments about plans to end their payment of VCAP as a form of punishment, and hoping that the right to work law is something that they can take advantage of.
70 miles from Louisville is another auto plant, their pay rate and benefits are almost the same. Those guys don’t have union dues, or volunteer to pay VCAP. If those employees feel that they are being harassed, or that the workload is too heavy, they have the option to quit instead of calling someone out to look into their work issues. When that plant is shut down for machinery downtime, or weather, those employees get paid only for the hours that they worked. When those employees achieve many years of seniority they still have no right to any open job, management makes the call on every job regardless of seniority, (so stay healthy!). If that plant decides to make it mandatory for you to work over a few hours at the end of your shift they do it. They also have a 3 tier pay scale, the hours that you work are carefully calculated for the lower two tiers, to prevent them from ever being able to receive any benefits or extra vacation days. Those lower tiers do not guarantee a permanent position either, some of them have more than ten years invested. A single injury or a repetitive motion injury will get you fired, regardless of your seniority, or status. (toyota management posts the termination reasons as “other than the medical issue” to avoid legal problems, and to avoid workers comp claims.) Those toyota employees also know that should the UAW ever close up shop, that they can kiss their own pay rates and benefits goodbye. Their benefits exist (via management) solely to prevent a union from forming there.
I never worked in a union shop before I worked here. I’m glad that I do. I’m a proud member of 862. I don’t understand why your problems weren’t addressed, and I'm sorry that your committeeperson didn’t have all of the facts that would have corrected the problems you face(?), or maybe your committeeperson didn’t fully explain why your problem was something that they couldn’t address. Our committee people have on average about 250 people every day that they’re trying to assist, it is a very difficult job to do if done correctly.
I don’t agree with much of what comes down the pipe from the IUAW, and our local executive board has expressed its dislike of their actions also, many times. If you need help on your job PM me (privately), I’m not a committeeperson, but I don’t mind helping if I can.
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Post by fordworker95 on Jul 14, 2014 19:49:20 GMT -5
^^^^^couldn't have said it better ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Post by rrisley on Jul 15, 2014 4:37:45 GMT -5
/\ well said
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Post by new2ford on Jul 15, 2014 5:39:14 GMT -5
Although I am not RTW, I do agree that there are serious and fundamental lapses in the quality of service we are getting from our union, both local and international. I am sick of being what they do in between trips for "training" and organizing drives. The money for all of this comes from the current membership and we are the last consideration in every situation. I feel like we have become the stepping stones for the ambition of a few people who hold all the power and the moment they are elected to those positions we are forgotten. How can you do a job if you hold multiple positions? If you are never in the location where that job is supposed to be? Not all are bad but it seems to be the trend. Unions in general and the UAW are great in theory but the practice needs serious overhaul.
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Post by ktpelec on Jul 15, 2014 8:05:45 GMT -5
Great post Grimace!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 19:21:24 GMT -5
I don't know where some of the people on this message board used to be employed, but it must have been a pretty good place. I can’t imagine why they ever left? I keep reading these comments about plans to end their payment of VCAP as a form of punishment, and hoping that the right to work law is something that they can take advantage of. 70 miles from Louisville is another auto plant, their pay rate and benefits are almost the same. Those guys don’t have union dues, or volunteer to pay VCAP. If those employees feel that they are being harassed, or that the workload is too heavy, they have the option to quit instead of calling someone out to look into their work issues. When that plant is shut down for machinery downtime, or weather, those employees get paid only for the hours that they worked. When those employees achieve many years of seniority they still have no right to any open job, management makes the call on every job regardless of seniority, (so stay healthy!). If that plant decides to make it mandatory for you to work over a few hours at the end of your shift they do it. They also have a 3 tier pay scale, the hours that you work are carefully calculated for the lower two tiers, to prevent them from ever being able to receive any benefits or extra vacation days. Those lower tiers do not guarantee a permanent position either, some of them have more than ten years invested. A single injury or a repetitive motion injury will get you fired, regardless of your seniority, or status. (toyota management posts the termination reasons as “other than the medical issue” to avoid legal problems, and to avoid workers comp claims.) Those toyota employees also know that should the UAW ever close up shop, that they can kiss their own pay rates and benefits goodbye. Their benefits exist (via management) solely to prevent a union from forming there. I never worked in a union shop before I worked here. I’m glad that I do. I’m a proud member of 862. I don’t understand why your problems weren’t addressed, and I'm sorry that your committeeperson didn’t have all of the facts that would have corrected the problems you face(?), or maybe your committeeperson didn’t fully explain why your problem was something that they couldn’t address. Our committee people have on average about 250 people every day that they’re trying to assist, it is a very difficult job to do if done correctly. I don’t agree with much of what comes down the pipe from the IUAW, and our local executive board has expressed its dislike of their actions also, many times. If you need help on your job PM me (privately), I’m not a committeeperson, but I don’t mind helping if I can. While at the same time, a couple hundred miles away at a VW Plant, our union dues are being wasted by lackeys that the UAW appointed (Who never even work in a fucking plant) to go out and fruitlessly try to persuade workers there to join our GREAT union who would give them nothing more than they already have. In fact, they would lose money if they joined. Now 12-20 years ago, I wouldn't be saying this or even thinking this. Our union stood tall and proud and did great things. Now they divide and conquer their own people and play us like fools and do what the company wishes. Piss off the union by not playing their game of grab ass and get black listed and you will never get the help or representation you need. The good ole boy system is in effect at LAP. Get hurt and yea, you get shunned by fellow workers and fucked by management. I guess you haven't seen our work load on the line lately have you? The same jobs, injuries, repairs from the jobs being over loaded, etc. Dude, take off your dam blinders and actually look around the plant. Look at how many people are in medical every day from the same jobs hurting them. Look at Health and Safety not doing their job in preventing these injuries from happening. One job in paticular has injured over 10 people on A crew alone in west chasis, but Health and Safety looked the other way. Take off the blinders and look around you.
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Post by Jr on Jul 15, 2014 20:06:54 GMT -5
Take it from somebody who knows first hand this happens way tooo Often...
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Post by ktpelec on Jul 16, 2014 6:16:03 GMT -5
The question is how did this once powerful UAW union get this way? The corporate world with its vast resources $$ fueled a huge propaganda campaign the last several decades that has been very successful in changing the public image of the union worker. We aren't a proud, hard working, efficient group anymore, we're over paid crybabies, in the eyes of many Americans. This same thing happened to the Steel unions in the '70s, the textile unions in the '80s, and many others throughout US manufacturing. This happened along with the loss of hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to overseas, for corporate profit. The UAW has made mistakes, but our loss of power is because of corporate power.
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Post by saugerman on Jul 16, 2014 7:47:07 GMT -5
Boy the union would sure would be happy if we where all sheep just like you...Keep drinking the kool-aid and believe that they give a crap about you..they don't..I smell a wannabe committeeman in the making...LOL So you are saying that you would have the same pay and benefits if you weren't union? You have yet to address my points. dude you believe everything the union tells you..take that and you were not here when all this crap went down it would be a waste of time to try to explain anything to you. Let me guess your already saving up your pennies to run for committeeman? Sorry to disappoint we already have enough assclowns in power now..please take you seat.
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Post by saugerman on Jul 16, 2014 7:49:25 GMT -5
The question is how did this once powerful UAW union get this way? The corporate world with its vast resources $$ fueled a huge propaganda campaign the last several decades that has been very successful in changing the public image of the union worker. We aren't a proud, hard working, efficient group anymore, we're over paid crybabies, in the eyes of many Americans. This same thing happened to the Steel unions in the '70s, the textile unions in the '80s, and many others throughout US manufacturing. This happened along with the loss of hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to overseas, for corporate profit. The UAW has made mistakes, but our loss of power is because of corporate power. And sorry asses like Bob King and Jimmy Settles didn't do anything to help in the debacle? Really?
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Post by rrisley on Jul 16, 2014 11:29:22 GMT -5
So you are saying that you would have the same pay and benefits if you weren't union? You have yet to address my points. dude you believe everything the union tells you..take that and you were not here when all this crap went down it would be a waste of time to try to explain anything to you. Let me guess your already saving up your pennies to run for committeeman? Sorry to disappoint we already have enough assclowns in power now..please take you seat. its funny how you turn to insults so readily.
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Post by justaworker on Jul 16, 2014 12:17:26 GMT -5
The question is how did this once powerful UAW union get this way? The corporate world with its vast resources $$ fueled a huge propaganda campaign the last several decades that has been very successful in changing the public image of the union worker. We aren't a proud, hard working, efficient group anymore, we're over paid crybabies, in the eyes of many Americans. This same thing happened to the Steel unions in the '70s, the textile unions in the '80s, and many others throughout US manufacturing. This happened along with the loss of hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to overseas, for 9807882851 profit. The UAW has made mistakes, but our loss of power is because of corporate power. Could you give some examples of this huge propaganda campaign? And, are you a real person or just an autobot? Every response is a bash against corporations.
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Post by saugerman on Jul 16, 2014 13:56:35 GMT -5
dude you believe everything the union tells you..take that and you were not here when all this crap went down it would be a waste of time to try to explain anything to you. Let me guess your already saving up your pennies to run for committeeman? Sorry to disappoint we already have enough assclowns in power now..please take you seat. its funny how you turn to insults so readily. just as you calling people scabs that dont agree with the union on every matter? Again nothing worse than a new hire telling people how it should be when they have no dog in the fight for the last 15-20 years..sorry if I offended..
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Post by rrisley on Jul 17, 2014 0:06:35 GMT -5
its funny how you turn to insults so readily. just as you calling people scabs that dont agree with the union on every matter? Again nothing worse than a new hire telling people how it should be when they have no dog in the fight for the last 15-20 years..sorry if I offended.. I never said that, I said that if you opt out you're worse than a scab. Also was a UAW member for 4.5 years before here and seen how things go when there is no solidarity so before you say I've had no dog in the fight might want to get your facts straight.
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Post by rrisley on Jul 17, 2014 0:07:55 GMT -5
The question is how did this once powerful UAW union get this way? The corporate world with its vast resources $$ fueled a huge propaganda campaign the last several decades that has been very successful in changing the public image of the union worker. We aren't a proud, hard working, efficient group anymore, we're over paid crybabies, in the eyes of many Americans. This same thing happened to the Steel unions in the '70s, the textile unions in the '80s, and many others throughout US manufacturing. This happened along with the loss of hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to overseas, for 9807882851 profit. The UAW has made mistakes, but our loss of power is because of corporate power. Could you give some examples of this huge propaganda campaign? And, are you a real person or just an autobot? Every response is a bash against corporations. look what caterpillar has said about unions in the past
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Post by cal50 on Jul 17, 2014 0:39:24 GMT -5
The question is how did this once powerful UAW union get this way? The corporate world with its vast resources $$ fueled a huge propaganda campaign the last several decades that has been very successful in changing the public image of the union worker. We aren't a proud, hard working, efficient group anymore, we're over paid crybabies, in the eyes of many Americans. This same thing happened to the Steel unions in the '70s, the textile unions in the '80s, and many others throughout US manufacturing. This happened along with the loss of hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to overseas, for corporate profit. The UAW has made mistakes, but our loss of power is because of corporate power. The answer is simple : The UAW like big bloated government becomes more self serving than helping the people that pay dues. When this happens people do not want to be part of it be it new paying members or existing ones. Blaming outside sources for internal union mismanagement and a crappy public image is pretty lame. If unions actually provided visible benefits to passers by they would be enticed to join. Most unions are viewed as self serving and only an obstacle to business or adding costs. IN VW's case the company WANTED and need a union structure to implement their management system, the workers voted it down,NOT the corporation or politicians. In many cases the union would cost the workers $$$ and give little in return. The UAW has always talked about organizing the "other" auto companies and spends lost of money each year in that attempt. Their results suck becasue the UAW is viewed as a self serving entity. I would love to see just a little of that organizing money spent on the people that pay the dues (membership) and not the endless failed yearly boondoggle organizing vacations and money lining democrat candidate pockets & campaigns. I do not entirely trust Ford management but I trust them far more than the IUAW. Some of the BS played with transfers and job postings is all on the UAW , not management. I would expect that kind of crap coming from the company but its the union in most cases. Its even more insulting when your dues is paying the people that are the same ones screwing you. RTW laws must scare the hell out of the IUAW and it should. If forced membership is the only way to get or retain members they should be very afraid. Since they fail miserably at recruiting any rear new member head count they raised dues 25%. I don't see many 2nd tier people desiring to keep paying dues for reduced pay for equal work. Try blaming the above on corporate power........
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Post by saugerman on Jul 17, 2014 5:08:13 GMT -5
let me explain no dog in the fight When you hired in Ford told you what you where going to get and you still have that or more right? We older ones reopened the contract and gave up concessions to keep ford alive..so we don't.. When we voted on this matter were where you sitting in the union hall? ? thats right you were not there All of the older employees had to go home and tell our families that we hoped we did the right thing and hopefully we would be still there afterwards or at least sitting on the bubble..you did not. We have done 10 years plus without a wage increase (unlike Ford Management or our union) you have not. While two tier does suck and believe us older ones we don't like it either it is here to stay for the foreseeable future..at the time it was the only way to keep Ford solvent (and for For family to keep controlling interest stock..we found that out later) you did not. It was this sacrifice that kept the doors open and you new hires a way to get in the door; again you were not there. I am sorry CAT put it up your ass but that's not Ford nor does it pertain to Ford...sorry. So yes we older ones are tired of empty promises by our union and want to make them accountable for what we feel we want and need in fairness while everyone but the line worker sees the money....So I stand by my comment you have no dog in the fight...It will come around for the new hires...but lets do the right thing for the ones that made it happen and the retirees that did so much before us only to have the great UAW squander it with stupid crap through mismanagement and cronyism.(So don't drink their koolaid thinking the UAW has godlike powers and will do the right thing by us) they haven't so far.
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Post by ktpelec on Jul 17, 2014 6:32:37 GMT -5
So Cal, you're saying there has never been an active movement in the corporate world to weaken or totally eliminate unions in the US? What happened to all the unions that used to be so powerful in the US? There have never been threats made to close factories etc.. against union workers? Those very things made the difference in a very close vote in Tenn. Anti-Union efforts by very powerful individuals is a very real thing... to deny it is absurd.
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Post by cal50 on Jul 17, 2014 10:47:46 GMT -5
So Cal, you're saying there has never been an active movement in the corporate world to weaken or totally eliminate unions in the US? What happened to all the unions that used to be so powerful in the US? There have never been threats made to close factories etc.. against union workers? Those very things made the difference in a very close vote in Tenn. Anti-Union efforts by very powerful individuals is a very real thing... to deny it is absurd. Threats to join a union and threats to not join or form a union is two way street and not mutually exclusive. When left to the vote of the people involved to join or not join its pretty clear what the choice is. 7% of the total workforce is part of a union or 7 out of 100 people working. Some of that 7% is "forced" membership by various state laws. When RTW becomes as option I would expect that 7% number to change and it will be from the workers choice alone, not the corporation. If the only way to get new members or retain current ones is thru laws forcing that its pretty sad.
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Post by ktpelec on Jul 17, 2014 12:05:58 GMT -5
Again, to deny there is a real, well documented, and successful effort, by very powerful individuals to weaken or eliminate unions in the US is absurd...
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