|
Post by kessinger on Feb 23, 2012 0:23:20 GMT -5
I am not sure what we will fix on the local yet. I lead you guys to believe we would have bid TL's in there, and we still might, but the meetings we have had so far don't hold up to what you are telling me. Since we were meeting with Teamleaders I fully expected to hear their teams wanted them bid and grandfathered but they say their teams wanted no part of bid teamleaders. And no we didn't threaten them, these guys have been long time teamleaders, they have balls to stand up for themselves.
So again, I am 1 of the 5 negotiating, it may come back with bid TL's but it may not and I want to be open with you guys, I didn't want to bury this in another post.
I have talked to hundreds of people on this. And to be truthful even HERE I have four confirmed pro-bid teamleaders people. Scott, marcus, Bo, and KTPgal. The others on here may be from other plants or from manegment, I don't know.
Trinitus you can tell me where your area is that everyone wants it and I, or a bargainer will go talk to them, you don't have to leave your name. (ps I do agree with your bids in department first time though)
But, so far, all I am getting is that if we bid teamleaders they will shoot it down.
The issues they have brought up the most(not all, just the most) are.......
----Anger over Equity of Sacrifice
----KTP/LAP transfer letter
----People want the 10 per team so we hire people(but, when we tell them we have to have bid teamleaders to do that, they say screw it then)
----Fans on forks not being done in a timely enough manner.
----And we had to clear up about what some things meant.
----standards
----voting times. (more of a nightshift issue)
We have a lot more people to talk to SO THINGS MAY CHANGE, we won't sit down with the company again for a week or so, but I wanted to post this so you guys didn't accuse me of misleading or lieing to you if it doesnt have bid TL's
Out of the 3 departments of TL's I sat down with tonight only 2 said they wanted bid teamleaders, and they didn't go as far as to say their teams would vote for it. Most said they would roll out to shoot it down.
I know, I know, your about to accuse me of hating people with seniority, playing to the majority and burning down the pillars of democracy, but the fact remains we have to have a local people will vote for.
I have walked and talked a alot and have not found a team that said they want bid teamleaders.
SO I PUT THIS CHALLENGE OUT THERE, if you say a majority of your team wants bid teamleaders (and I have yet to find that team) tell me what team and one of us will go talk to that team, and I will post what comes out of those conversations. So if you are gonna bash me saying I am out of touch at least tell me what team you think I am out of touch with!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You say I am wrong, so prove it. And I am asking because I want to get this local right, and it to be a local that people want to vote for.
***** I don't want to seem like I am ignoring trades but we know what issue needs to be fixed there, they have been VERY VERY vocal about it****** In person, not here.
|
|
|
Post by gator on Feb 23, 2012 0:46:56 GMT -5
this is my opinion but I honestly believe that bid team leaders would cure a lot of issues in our own teams by taking the politics out of our teams leaving less drama. Plus whether you realize it or not management persuades people to vote for certain people as team leaders creating more supervision if you catch my drift. I understand the concern of non elected team leaders but if you dont abuse the system then you would not have any issues. Seniority would prevail the way it is suppose to and who knows the additional jobs could open up a lot more opportunities for people that are ready for a change. I think the whole plant has become stagnant and looking for a change you can feel it and hear it in peoples voices. By the way Brian the people that you talked to in the meetings were also the ones that will be affected.
|
|
|
Post by kessinger on Feb 23, 2012 1:01:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the input gator, and I agree we did speak with the people afftected, but I personaly thought they would want it to be bid so they wouldn't have to have elections, but grandfathered. But, that wasn't the case.
And I agree it would cure a lot of the ills, and agree that sen. should prevail. But, my opinion won't pass this contract.
I have also walked and talked to a lot of people that aren't TL's and I am getting far more people telling me they would vote down bid TL's.
|
|
|
Post by gator on Feb 23, 2012 1:17:25 GMT -5
So then what direction do we go in this local contract? If not bidding team leaders or getting rid of transferring to LAP. Revote the original? Bid Team Leaders ? I know that you guys had the meetings with team leaders today but it sounds like we are still at a stale mate. Besides Brian does anyone have an answer ? Ive been talking to people all night and know one seems to have the answer.
|
|
|
Post by trinitus on Feb 23, 2012 1:28:49 GMT -5
trim lines 1 trough 6, I also talked to a stock driver who is a very good friend and he told me that more people in his area were talking about wanting them bid jobs. He works in body shop Bcrew. From what he told me, he was just passing on some info about the meeting of what he was told. Like he said true or not that is what they are saying about the meeting. Some of the things he has been saying (which he might come back on me about this) has been very interesting. He can't understand why the people in this plant is so opposed to the bids when in fact the National contract said they wanted them to be bid jobs. He understands that it is up to each plant but he said that hell, the company can always go back and tell you guys they will be bid even without it being in the local contract. All you guys have to do is figure out the best way to solve the matter without a big to do about it. Truth is Kess, I was a team leader at the last contract vote and I voted it down when you guys wanted to bid them last time. I voted NO because I didn't feel it was right for me to be Grandfathered in when there is so many people with more time than me that deserves a chance at a bid job. The biggest thing most people don't want it Grandfathered in.
For the record TODAY i WOULD VOTE FOR THEM TO BE BID JOBS EVEN WITH A 14 TO 1 RATIO. We lost so many good jobs over the last few years and we need to get more bid jobs for our plant. After doing that job before I would not even consider bidding on them but some just want the title of a bid job. I just don't see the headaches and conflicts that some say will come to them. It is like everything else in the plant, after a couple of weeks after it is implanted things will calm down. Plus one more thing he told me, he said that with them being bidded there is less likely a chance that management would screw with them once they realize that by cutting team leader's out could result in one of the suckea%% losing that position. Otherwise being elected Management can cut out a team and the team leader with the highest seniority could go back on the line with the low end people still doing the job they once had. Just sayin
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 23, 2012 2:25:29 GMT -5
So let me get this straight...you asked team leaders if they were okay with bidding their jobs with no grandfathering? And we expected them to be okay losing their jobs? And then you had these team leaders ask their team face to face if they wanted a new team leader basically? I don't get the logic, but it does kinda make it look like you guys are making an effort. It was voted down, change language to bid and no grandfathering and have a new vote. Why change nothing in regards to the TL situation and attempt to get more yes voters to pass the same turd? I'm sorry, I almost forgot where I work...
|
|
86gn
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by 86gn on Feb 23, 2012 2:29:07 GMT -5
trim lines 1 trough 6, I also talked to a stock driver who is a very good friend and he told me that more people in his area were talking about wanting them bid jobs. He works in body shop Bcrew. From what he told me, he was just passing on some info about the meeting of what he was told. Like he said true or not that is what they are saying about the meeting. Some of the things he has been saying (which he might come back on me about this) has been very interesting. He can't understand why the people in this plant is so opposed to the bids when in fact the National contract said they wanted them to be bid jobs. He understands that it is up to each plant but he said that hell, the company can always go back and tell you guys they will be bid even without it being in the local contract. All you guys have to do is figure out the best way to solve the matter without a big to do about it. Truth is Kess, I was a team leader at the last contract vote and I voted it down when you guys wanted to bid them last time. I voted NO because I didn't feel it was right for me to be Grandfathered in when there is so many people with more time than me that deserves a chance at a bid job. The biggest thing most people don't want it Grandfathered in. For the record TODAY i WOULD VOTE FOR THEM TO BE BID JOBS EVEN WITH A 14 TO 1 RATIO. We lost so many good jobs over the last few years and we need to get more bid jobs for our plant. After doing that job before I would not even consider bidding on them but some just want the title of a bid job. I just don't see the headaches and conflicts that some say will come to them. It is like everything else in the plant, after a couple of weeks after it is implanted things will calm down. Plus one more thing he told me, he said that with them being bidded there is less likely a chance that management would screw with them once they realize that by cutting team leader's out could result in one of the suckea%% losing that position. Otherwise being elected Management can cut out a team and the team leader with the highest seniority could go back on the line with the low end people still doing the job they once had. Just sayin You are right on ,,follow the national contract and bid them no GF , if that means you have to slowly bid them out to get people in place and train them then do it.. How much have we been told that the union is all about bringing back and creating jobs and then you(local) want to try to give up over 100 good paying jobs!!! Thats crazy, we should not even be voting on this
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 23, 2012 2:32:30 GMT -5
Exactly...great post 86gn.
|
|
|
Post by bluelu on Feb 23, 2012 2:38:15 GMT -5
You are right on ,,follow the national contract and bid them no GF , if that means you have to slowly bid them out to get people in place and train them then do it.. How much have we been told that the union is all about bringing back and creating jobs and then you(local) want to try to give up over 100 good paying jobs!!! Thats crazy, we should not even be voting on this ( RACK ) Read more: scottrlap.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rumors&action=display&thread=11643#ixzz1nBjzTYFt
|
|
|
Post by jgt150ktp on Feb 23, 2012 3:50:36 GMT -5
as far as the whole TL issue goes I dont care to lose my TL . I'M NOT VOTING ANYTHING IN TILL THE GRIEVENCE IS DELT WITH ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. Once that is settled then we can move on but this whole grievence/ arbitration being prolonged is pure BS. Settle that FIRST. and I'll tell any memeber of the BC who will come to B7 on A crew and talk about it.
|
|
|
Post by ktpnightshift4life on Feb 23, 2012 5:01:19 GMT -5
I'm on B crew, Super Duty trim and here is the consensus:
-Teamleader must remain an elected position and go to the 10x1 configuration.
-jobs not being able to be rebalanced for 6 months unless the company notifies the union first. This is complete utter bullshit and is the same as the current policy allowing jobs to be rebalanced while in a launch mode, which is why we have xxxx.00, xxxx.25, xxxx.50, xxxx.75 ect models. They rebalance whenever they want and the union does nothing about it. The 120 day rule needs to be reinstated, no ifs, ands or buts about it. With the 120 rule they were allowed to rebalance for a 4 month period and that was it. The union needs to stand up and demand this.
- standards need to be developed and enforced equally. Right now its strictly pick and choose as the company likes.
- UAW time study needs to be elimanted. All time study needs to be handled by an unibiased, 3rd party firm outside of the company. It has been proven time and time again that our UAW time study officials follow strictly in line with the company wishes on time standards. There is no way that every single job can come in 1/10th or 1/20th of a second under the 54 second maximum, yet thats always the case with these officials.
Our building chairman needs to start listening to the people who elected him and whom he represents, not the Ford officials. He should be familiar with collective bargaining and that there are steps that can be taken should the company not be willing to negotiate in good faith. We do have the right to strike and should not be affraid to do so. Feedback from the teamleaders in trim indicated that the meeting on Wednesday evening was a waste of time with essentially everything being shot down with one excuse or another as to why an issue could be be improved upon in this proposed contract. Its time to take a stand and if that means issuing a deadline to strike then so be it.
Kessinger, I have a lot of respect for you and how you represent us as well as Rodney. I wish I could say the same for the rest but it seems obvious these days that our chairman is more concerned with the companys wishes and requests than he is of those he represents.
|
|
|
Post by marcus on Feb 23, 2012 6:47:27 GMT -5
Been told by a Brent leader that under 10 TO 1 that company gets say in who gets bid is this true or a scare
|
|
|
Post by marcus on Feb 23, 2012 7:00:01 GMT -5
Team
|
|
|
Post by Ktp1989 on Feb 23, 2012 7:30:06 GMT -5
"***** I don't want to seem like I am ignoring trades but we know what issue needs to be fixed there, they have been VERY VERY vocal about it****** In person, not here."
If you knew what issues needed to be fixed then why bring it to a vote without fixing it?
I no longer have a dog in the TL fight but having worked at LAP and KTP....it's a no brainer...bid the jobs and no GF...period. Had many upgraders at LAP with over 30 years and they always took care of us! Bid jobs...bid jobs...bid jobs...why is this even a discussion.
Also...why ask someone on a TL job if they want their job bid and no GF....wonder what their response will be....and it's amazing that trim nightshift(the least amount of seniority in the plant) wants to keep the TL's as is....suprising. Everyone will have seniority at sometime and will be glad the BC did the right time and bid these jobs by seniority...It's all we have left in here.
|
|
|
Post by marcus on Feb 23, 2012 7:48:03 GMT -5
Seniority is always in the minority do the right thing
|
|
|
Post by thintwowin on Feb 23, 2012 8:14:16 GMT -5
I could careless either way. I see both sides. I wouldn't have the job. When people realize they will get moved off their team and/or off their shift and/or out of their department. And you can't get rid of a bad one . I bet $100 it gets voted down if you bid team leaders. Now bidding it department wide the first time might have a chance , I doult it thou. It's been elected job for 20+ years. Ktpers will not let It happen.
|
|
|
Post by Ex-metalman on Feb 23, 2012 8:51:54 GMT -5
hey Kess didnt see anything about being to give up your bid job?Is that still on the board?Another thing I dont see what the problem is with the TL stuff.Theyre saying you bid tl out you might get a bad one???What hell does that mean?Im thinkin do your job take a bathroom break daily,open your stock?What else is there to do?You can do the rest of the stuff yourself(day off request,etc.)Dont see the problem.I say let senority mean something.Thats why we have it.He may not let you go early to pickup applebees or pizza,but is that the TLS duty.Wont the union make sure the people are happy?If everybody on 1 team bitches about the TL Im SURE YOU OR ONE OF OUR LEADERS WOULD INVESTIGATE THE PROBLEM>CORRECT?Thanks
|
|
|
Post by marcus on Feb 23, 2012 9:08:05 GMT -5
When more people get 20 years in they will change there tune on seniority.Why don't we vote on fork jobs to or may've repair
|
|
|
Post by TonyV on Feb 23, 2012 9:35:21 GMT -5
I am not getting into the TL debate.( I have NO team and NO team leader! Left by myself in body) I was actually shocked when the local did not pass. Every one points to this or that - but lets look at stats:
1) Only 1/3 of the plant voted 2) After asking many people about why they voted no - most gave an argument that dealt with the national contract(Health ins., Equity of Sacrifice grievance, lack of faith after the national, etc.) Seniority issues were brought up though......
If this same contract was put to a new vote - with the committeemen telling their areas when and where to vote the day before - and then letting the polls stay open longer- I think it passes. (A lot of people said they would have voted for it - but they missed their 1 window to vote because of being on nights)
With that said - Kess, it does look conspicuous that you guys talked to the Team Leaders about bidding. In fact - that is like asking the robbers at a crime scene for the truth of what happened. I think that information will be skewed at best.
|
|
|
Post by TonyV on Feb 23, 2012 9:44:02 GMT -5
If the Team Leader issue is one that Scott Eskridge made a stand on against the company because of ratios, etc., then that should be conveyed to the membership prior to a vote. If the union wants information from the floor - ask people on the floor directly - and start with "Did you VOTE!??"
A union of people cannot stand together or behind one another without having factual information at hand.
|
|
|
Post by trinitus on Feb 23, 2012 9:47:04 GMT -5
Best post ever again by TonyV.
|
|
|
Post by trinitus on Feb 23, 2012 9:55:25 GMT -5
Now I voted no on this local contract and none of the reason's I gave was because of the grievence (or lack of) issue. That is a dog and pony at best and we won't see anything out of it in my opinion.
Wheteher the tl issue is put in the local or not it will pass or fail on its own merit alone. Personally I hink it will fail because basically there is nothing in it that I saw worth voting yes on. Had there more substance to the local contract AND the TL issue was not in it I would have voted yes. Just like if there was no substance in it and the TL issue was in there to be bid I would have voted no. One issue alone can't make or break a contract nor should it ever be that way.
I would like to see more substance to the contract (other than crossing out name and putting in theers) along with the TL issue but hey that is me and it seems like a lot of eople feel that way too.
Bottom line we need more bid jobs, if it means ditching the moa and going back to a traditional plant then so be it. All of this team concept crap is over rated andit is supposed to be based off Toyota. So my question is this, Why would a union shop want to model themselves after a non-union shop?
|
|
|
Post by moelap on Feb 23, 2012 10:00:58 GMT -5
So let me get this straight...you asked team leaders if they were okay with bidding their jobs with no grandfathering? And we expected them to be okay losing their jobs? And then you had these team leaders ask their team face to face if they wanted a new team leader basically? I don't get the logic, but it does kinda make it look like you guys are making an effort. It was voted down, change language to bid and no grandfathering and have a new vote. Why change nothing in regards to the TL situation and attempt to get more yes voters to pass the same turd? I'm sorry, I almost forgot where I work... BID BID BID!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by nvsked1 on Feb 23, 2012 10:44:54 GMT -5
Asking team leaders if they think they should be replaced?? Really! Oh no my team loves me, they'll never go for that...
If you feel the information you are receiving is inaccurate, or is being skewed by outside interest then conduct a formal survey. Broadcast (HUGE SIGNS WHATEVER) the fact you are seeking opinions on the team leader issue, hold a formal survey (secret ballot) where people are free to express their opinion without being afraid of offending someone...
Equity of sacrifice... yeah I'm holding my breath on that one, we'll show them I'm not voting for anything until the grievance is settled! I'll show you!
|
|
|
Post by nvsked1 on Feb 23, 2012 10:46:23 GMT -5
BIG SHOUT OUT TO TONY V.... well said
|
|
|
Post by ChrisV on Feb 23, 2012 10:50:54 GMT -5
Getting a consensus here is like trying to herd chickens, almost impossible. Every job here should be a bid job. Takes out all the in fighting and puts us back to being the UNITED Auto workers instead of the Devised Auto workers.
|
|
|
Post by mulewrong on Feb 23, 2012 11:41:08 GMT -5
As a skilled trades person, I obviously don't have a dog in the team leader fight. But what I do read (between the lines) is seniority should mean something, there should be more bid jobs, and accountability....
People on line are supposed to do their job, they want the people who support production to do their job! Be it team leaders, stock, committeepeople, whatever.
For the one poster who thinks the jobs are over loaded and their not getting the support of union to correct things? I can tell you from personal experience, that the union here at KTP wants to get along with the management team here. They want to accommodate Ford, so Ford wants to do business in KTP. Go along get along, and they have jobs operating here with walk distances, job effort (push / pull effort) that exceed Fords written standards, but again the union is see no evil, speak no evil. So maybe one of the things you want to see in the contract is for Ford to follow it's own published health standards regarding job effort, cycle time etc... Make em show you buy off from national Ford if needed..
Sorry not trying to hijack the thread... continue the debate
|
|
|
Post by gator on Feb 23, 2012 13:31:36 GMT -5
so lets vote on the team leader bid jobs, that seems to be the only debate or concern with the majority, everything else should have been settled on a national level, we will have to take care of that next contract. Regardless of who you like or who you dont like right now this indecisiveness is showing ford our weakness. Lets come together as one union and make a stand on the issue in front of us. No matter what you think of our union leadership or the grievance, etc. we can only settle this one vote at a time so go make your voice heard at least we have that choice and are not in a nonunion situation, because if that were the case God knows I would have been fired along time ago.
|
|
|
Post by marcus on Feb 23, 2012 14:08:14 GMT -5
Isn't the 10 to 1 in our national contract
|
|
86gn
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by 86gn on Feb 23, 2012 15:00:27 GMT -5
Isn't the 10 to 1 in our national contract Yes it is but KTP will give up that new ratio(giving up 100 +jobs) to keep it a vote in system. Again crazy!!
|
|