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Post by ktpking on Dec 10, 2009 3:07:24 GMT -5
OK, you people twisted my arm to put my 2 cents in. Faith, is what you have to have. I have Faith. Have I seen GOD? Yep, every time I take a breath of air in, every time I open my eyes, every time I feel the wind blow. Physically have I seen GOD? I guess I can say so. The King James version of the bible tell me GOD created man in his image. So every time I see a human being I have FAITH that I looking at what GOD looks like. I believe in the BIBLE. ( B-basic I-instruction B-before L-leaving E-earth) Can't get any easier than that can it? I guess if you don't have faith or believe in anything then you are just an existence. My point being how do you know that World War I happened? Were you there? Did Hitler really exist? Was George Washington really our first president? Did the Wright Brothers really fly the first airplane? You get the point if you were not there and their are some books written about it how do you know it's true or not? FAITH.
Well, I can care less about what other people believe or not. I don't push my faith on anyone. It's free will. Every human being is born with it. BUT, I believe the world would be a better place if they did have faith and read the BIBLE and learned from it. The Golden Rule again. Want Peace? How about following the Ten Commandments. Follow those simple rules and the world would be a great place to live. Don't follow those rules, then learn to live in a shit hole till we are six feet under kept at a cool temperature.
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Post by ktpelec on Dec 10, 2009 7:09:43 GMT -5
Religion is for people that are afraid of Hell, Spirituality is for people that have already been there.
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Post by wplap on Dec 10, 2009 10:51:38 GMT -5
Religion is for people that afraid of Hell, Spirituality is for people that have already been there. Is this yours ktpelec? If so, can I steal it? |
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Post by ktpelec on Dec 10, 2009 11:21:19 GMT -5
Feel free to use whatever I post, my silver tongued fellow poster. In fact that little tidbit was stolen by me after a friend reading over my shoulder made the comment. I look forward to future discussions about this topic.
The "Golden Rule" isn't in the Bible anywhere, this was made up by an Elementary School teacher.
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Post by wplap on Dec 10, 2009 11:42:54 GMT -5
My point being how do you know that World War I happened? Were you there? Did Hitler really exist? Was George Washington really our first president? Did the Wright Brothers really fly the first airplane?
These are historical facts, and to that point, most scholars agree that there was a Jesus of Nazareth. It is when the bible become intertwined with the divine(you know, the very first passage) that I lose interest. I am a natural born skeptic and I will not be spoon-fed anything, especially from a book that is written mostly in parables. I say, why not the Iliad or the Odyssey? They are both ancient tomes of Homer's eye witness account of the Trojan wars, where he also speaks of the divine; the gods of Greek mythology. So why not believe in Zeus or Hera instead?
My take on Jesus of Nazareth:
Jesus was a rebel. He was born into a harsh theocracy, that was tainted with greed and malice. Being that the religious leaders were the "judge and jury", he took from them their power by claiming a divine rite...being the Son of God. This in effect, to the believer and followers of Jesus, freed them from the thought that if they did not follow the Pharisees they were some how acting against God. Jesus took that power and gave it to the people.
Fast forward to today:
Jesus is now an industry, a religion, and a lost point. That same power and greed he gave his life for is exactly how his followers honor him today. Just look at "Six Flags over Jesus", that was the first of many mega-temples, full of pomp and parade, and the structures themselves are borderline idolatry. Look at some of the homes these "christian" preachers live in. I personally, live a couple hundred yards away from one of these fellows, and his 3000 sq.ft. ranch style house seems a bit much for just him and his wife.
"Do not honor a simple man with the spoils of a king, honor him with respect" GdV
So christians who might read this, I say to you: Forgo the dog show and pageantry of the CHURCH this Sunday and stay at home with your family and honor this man's life with your thoughts and love.
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Post by kkenn on Dec 10, 2009 17:15:17 GMT -5
Matthew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"
The Temple in Jerusalem was by far the biggest building in town. While many Christians are put off by SEChr. I think if we (taxpayers) can build a stadium for a basketball team then why not our God (private donations). SEC is not my church, but I have visited, and must say, it's very cool if your in to Jesus. Meaning big buildings bring in big crowds.
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Post by rclap on Dec 10, 2009 18:27:19 GMT -5
The "Golden Rule" isn't in the Bible anywhere, this was made up by an Elementary School teacher. Wrong. It is in the Bible, but it's called the Royal Law, not the Golden Rule. James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: |
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Post by bo862 on Dec 10, 2009 22:05:49 GMT -5
I agree with your first statement. The second statement is not accurate. Jesus never proclaimed divine rite, deity ship or to be the Son of Man. Had he done so would make him no better than the pope or one of the other human appointed leaders. It has to do with the prophecy of the coming messiah, anyone that claims to be the son of man is NOT the messiah.
The third one I say is accurate but there is more to it than that. Anything that makes money is going to draw people that are after a quick buck or a free ride. Even religion is not free from crooks and con artists. That does not mean that all religion is corrupt.
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Post by ktpking on Dec 11, 2009 3:45:49 GMT -5
My point being how do you know that World War I happened? Were you there? Did Hitler really exist? Was George Washington really our first president? Did the Wright Brothers really fly the first airplane?
These are historical facts, and to that point, most scholars agree that there was a Jesus of Nazareth.
Ahhh, historical facts. How do we know? Is there someone still alive that has actually meet George Washington and been to his Inauguration? No. But we have Faith that this happened because it is written in the history Books. Same with the Bible no one is alive today that actually saw Moses part the Red Sea but, we have Faith that it happened because it is written in the Bible.
Religion is a topic that no one side will ever win. Nor should they. It is a matter of personal belief. Like I said before Faith is what it all boils down to.
One more point I would like to make. The Ten Commandments is the basic foundation for the laws we have today. Funny how we can't post these Commandments in a court house or school where children can learn them. If you have no rules to follow society would be in shambles or an anarchy state.
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Post by ktpking on Dec 11, 2009 3:57:07 GMT -5
Here my friends is the ultimate role model. For children and adults of all ages. Let's not forget he is the reason for the season. Attachments:
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Post by kessinger on Dec 11, 2009 7:49:24 GMT -5
I too feel Religion has become a money grab for many. But lets acknowledge the things the Bible did do in order to just help people survive that time period.
Don't eat shellfish? Now none of us would still believe this is a sin. But, in those times when bacteria hadn't even been discovered. eating shellfish could KILL YOU. The old testiment is full of "sins" we find very odd today. But, it was created to help people just survive in a time and place that was very hard to survive. Things like tithing. Tithing has been hijacked to furhter the belief that if you give money you get blessings in return. But, if you read up on tithing it was a lesson on conserving food. People at that time saved nothing for a rainy day nor saved food for a drought. And that is what tithing is about. Put a little back so you don't starve in the tough times.
But, as society grew and became more educated the Bibles message could evolve as well. The new testiment tells us to take care of the needy, heal the sick, care for the widow and the orphan. All things an advancing society should do.
The abuse of religion is about to get worse. There is a site called the Conservapedia that is trying to rewrite the Bible. They say it is too liberaly slanted. They want people to write changes to make it more conservative. I guess conservatives have realized they can't explain away why the Bible tells us to love one another and take care of those in need. God is to liberal and the best way to fix that is to do a rewrite.
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Post by ktpelec on Dec 11, 2009 8:42:03 GMT -5
I agree that it is a choice of personal belief, and I don't believe any of it. I believe the Bible is a book that was written by a man, and rewritten many times by other men. Just like the accounts of other past historical events it may be biased by the author. Happy Christmas and Merry Holidays to all! Attachments:
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Post by wplap on Dec 11, 2009 11:18:18 GMT -5
 BRAINS!!!!! |
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Post by bo862 on Dec 12, 2009 9:37:25 GMT -5
You are the first person I have seen to bring up the significance of the old “sins”. There are too few people that will look at the bible and understand its overall significance.
The biggest attack on the bible is with all of these new translations in the past 20 years or so. There are so many denominations already that it can easily confuse anyone looking for God. More translations will mean more denominations down the road.
If you believe the bible is the word of God, why would you want to change it? According to Christianity God is omniscient, why would he need help editing his Word? For those that don’t believe it is his word then you may be practicing the wrong religion… I suggest you keep looking for your God instead of screwing up what already exists.
A side note about the Christian zealots. In America we have the morons that will scream “You’ll burn in hell if you don’t believe the way I do”, which most people can agree is annoying. In muslim countries the zealots strap a bomb onto a kid and try to have them kill anyone that doesn’t believe the way they do. I’ll take the Christians any day.
Have a Merry Christmas everyone.
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Post by hoghead on Dec 12, 2009 9:55:18 GMT -5
WP i think you are very smart and a great debater with a wild and creative imagination i never know what your going to say the thing is i cannot argue with u cause it takes faith to believe what i do its not scientific its a heart and mind thing if you are not open to a spiritual way of thinking there is nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise.but one things for sure you know how to stir the pot i really think thats your real motive and it has made for some interesting and spirited responses
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Post by kkenn on Dec 12, 2009 13:22:04 GMT -5
The problem for an English speaking Christian is with the English language itself. Only the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic were divinely inspired. The English language just doesnt have the depth of these languages, or Latin, so lots of people think they can translate it better. The KJV was translated so the avg. English speaking person could have access to God's word, even if it is imperfect, as are all English versions. The modern translations just carry this another step. Our language changes over the years and the KJV is coming up on its 400 year anniversary, so it can be a challenge to understand it.
JMHO
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Post by atltolap on Dec 12, 2009 14:36:10 GMT -5
If anyone is curious... Southeast Christian Saturday at 5:00 pm, Sunday at 9:00 and 11:15 am. Most people who criticize have never been. Find out for yourself! Merry Christmas ya'll.
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Post by lap65 on Dec 12, 2009 14:44:23 GMT -5
. Read your Ten Commandments and how about "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". You are not GOD and should not be going around passing judgements on others. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO JUDGE!!!! . [/quote]
That is not in the 10 commandments, but is a quote from Jesus.
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Post by meanjean on Dec 12, 2009 16:01:44 GMT -5
I know that, didn't say it was a commandment, but Thank you for passing that along
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Post by wplap on Dec 12, 2009 17:09:38 GMT -5
If there is a God...it's the internet! After a quick search, I see you are correct BO862, the Jesus never claimed to be the "Son of God" (you posted Son of Man, but I think you mean God), but he definitely inferred it:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:24-30)
As for the Son of Man:
But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
If Jesus, himself claims his "rite", in a roundabout fashion as he does so in the above passages, he is still essentially stating, a form of second hand divinity.
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Post by trinitus on Dec 12, 2009 17:50:12 GMT -5
If there is a God...it's the internet! After a quick search, I see you are correct BO862, the Jesus never claimed to be the "Son of God" (you posted Son of Man, but I think you mean God), but he definitely inferred it: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9) "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40) The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:24-30) As for the Son of Man: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28) For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32) If Jesus, himself claims his "rite", in a roundabout fashion as he does so in the above passages, he is still essentially stating, a form of second hand divinity. WOW |
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Post by trinitus on Dec 12, 2009 17:58:44 GMT -5
My point being how do you know that World War I happened? Were you there? Did Hitler really exist? Was George Washington really our first president? Did the Wright Brothers really fly the first airplane? These are historical facts, and to that point, most scholars agree that there was a Jesus of Nazareth. Ahhh, historical facts. How do we know? Is there someone still alive that has actually meet George Washington and been to his Inauguration? No. But we have Faith that this happened because it is written in the history Books. Same with the Bible no one is alive today that actually saw Moses part the Red Sea but, we have Faith that it happened because it is written in the Bible. Religion is a topic that no one side will ever win. Nor should they. It is a matter of personal belief. Like I said before Faith is what it all boils down to. One more point I would like to make. The Ten Commandments is the basic foundation for the laws we have today. Funny how we can't post these Commandments in a court house or school where children can learn them. If you have no rules to follow society would be in shambles or an anarchy state. So let's say that one hundred years from now, one of your ancestors say Do we really know the gulf war happened? or they might say How do we know for sure Barrack Obama was the first black president? True no one alive today can say for sure that George Washington was the first President since no one that was there is still alive. There is one person still alive that has fought in World War 1. We believe these things happened because our U. S. History books tell us so. Also there is video footage of a person we all believe to be Hitler. There is also video footage of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Both of these does not mean World War 2 didn't happened no more than it proves it did. We still have several armed forces members alive today that will tell us it did happen. Either you believe in the bible, Jesus and the Lord God in heaven or you don't. There is only word of mouth and some painted pictures that says he was here on earth. Your choice to believe in him or not. |
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Post by Jr on Dec 13, 2009 0:00:21 GMT -5
In your search you forgot a few important verses.
Philippians 2:5-11 (King James Version)
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Post by wplap on Dec 13, 2009 11:58:18 GMT -5
I was just looking for quotes in which Jesus himself was stating I am the Son of God. Thanks again internet!
This is getting boring, lets go ride bikes!
I have ADD and I am hung like a retard.
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Post by marcus on Dec 13, 2009 19:40:11 GMT -5
If your living your life like there is no God you better be right.So I dont care if some of you dont think there is a god or not, we shall all see one day.So have fun
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Post by wplap on Dec 13, 2009 20:19:39 GMT -5
If there is a god....I dare "it" to kill me right now!!
...............................................
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.............still waiting...............................
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that's what I thought. You just got punk'd god!
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Post by bo862 on Dec 14, 2009 20:23:19 GMT -5
I agree he inferred it many times.
Son of Man is what Jesus used to speak of himself in the third person in the gospels, another roundabout way of not stating he is the Son of God. So yes, it should have been God.
I agree.
I just want to point out an example about making changes to the Bible, I know those are not KJV scriptures, and there is a perfect example of one that wp quoted, John 10:30, which I think is a great example of how different translations will cause problems down the road for Christianity. I’ll try to keep it short.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one. (Unknown version)
In the context of the Bible this would lead some to believe that the Father is the Father of all, with everyone (including Jesus) being equal.
I and my Father are one. (KJV)
Its only one word difference, but that little difference in this version makes Jesus the sole heir to His Father (not his audience). It is a minor difference. When people discuss basic beliefs a difference in whether Jesus is the heir to God (making him God) or not is a major difference of opinion. I believe it is the small things like this that will end in more denominations and confusion down the road.
I am not trying to tell anyone what to believe or which Bible to read, but the phrase “Keep it simple stupid” comes to mind. The earliest English version will have the least amount of errors.
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Post by kkenn on Dec 14, 2009 21:28:41 GMT -5
wp quotes from the very popular NIV version. We have to be very careful of taking quotes from their context. Jn 10:29 makes it very clear which father He is referring to.
"I just want to point out an example about making changes to the Bible" Remember, the KJV is a change to the Bible. It's not the standard by which other translations are judged. I know people just love their KJ Bible, of course there's nothing wrong with that. I just find myself having to weed through the language to get to the meaning.
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Post by Jr on Dec 14, 2009 21:55:24 GMT -5
I Know this has turned into a religious discussion but since it's CHRISTmas I am throwing this out there ;D
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Post by marcus on Dec 15, 2009 17:51:16 GMT -5
"If there is a god....I dare "it" to kill me right now!"
This will not happen but good luck.I wish you well.
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