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Post by almost30 on Oct 14, 2011 7:59:55 GMT -5
I've given this proposal a lot of thought and still haven't decided which way to vote. I'm trying to take my indignation out of the equation and look at it from all angles. Here goes: I'd like to see a side by side comparison of the current contract(even with the concessions we accepted) and the new proposal. What are we losing, what are we gaining, and what remains the same. What exactly is the difference in the two? We can't compare our contract of 2004 with this proposal. Period. That was then, this is now. The economy has changed dramatically since then. The playing field has been tilted and there's really nothing we can do about that. We need to compare what we are offered to what we currently have. We gave up a lot and those of you who have been around a while, knew, if you give it up, it's gone. Yet the same people who voted to accept those concessions are now the most vocal against this contract. Ford is making billions. Ok, that's why they are in business, to make a profit. When they make a profit, they keep plants open, hire more people (even at a 2nd tier wage), and pay us a profit share. Ford's debt ratio is higher than the other two. Because they didn't take the bailout and allow the government to dictate how to run the company. We accepted that and wear T-shirts espousing our pride in that fact. But I digress... Am I pissed we didn't get our concessions back? Not really, because I never expected them back this soon and in this economy. The auto manufacturing business is tenuous at best. Will I accept this offer? Can I be "bribed"? If you think about it, anything an employer offers in a contract in a negotiation is basically a bribe to get you to sign it. "They offered me a $2 an hour raise, they're trying to bribe me to sign!" Finally: Your vote should be right for you, your family, and your current situation. My father, who is a Ford retiree, told me to pick my battles and try to detemine those you can win and those you can't. No one really wins in a strike. Is this proposal worth striking over? Will the monies lost be recouped with any gains? No one knows for sure. As for me, I'm still not sure how Im going to vote. Good luck with your decision and I'll always defend your right to make the one best for you and yours.
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Post by Whitey on Oct 14, 2011 8:37:38 GMT -5
The only way I would ever consider voting for this contract is if it had Bob King's and Settles letters of resignation stapled to the back of it!! Vote NO
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Post by ktpelec on Oct 14, 2011 8:57:43 GMT -5
Great post Almost30, (did I just post that?) LOL That's a calm level headed view, do you really work at Ford?? LOL
It seems that many people are frustrated with the US economic situation, and are voicing their anger at the UAW, and they are just the messengers with bad news. The negotiators on Fords side are very good at their jobs, they only offer just enough. Not anymore than the very least it will take to get a deal. The UAW has almost no bargaining position, American politics have made sure the laws are on the companies side. Still undecided here also...
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Post by tcap89 on Oct 14, 2011 12:31:11 GMT -5
I am trying to be level headed and keep my indignation out of my decision also. I am having a really hard time excepting the terrible language we have compared to GM for getting skilled trades working production back to their trade. The re skilling language was in our last contract and only a hand full of people were given that offer. Why will it be different this time? The GM contract says that skilled trades working production will be given an opportunity to go back to the trades. It is also wrong that Ford trades lose their trades pay if they have to go to production while GM trades keep their pay. What happened to the pattern bargaining I kept hearing about every time they came for concessions?
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Post by uknowit on Oct 14, 2011 15:33:27 GMT -5
Please everyone think before you decide to vote ether way don't let you anger get the better of you and remember you will have to live with your vote
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ktpt
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Post by ktpt on Oct 14, 2011 23:22:10 GMT -5
I don't see the point in voting no. That just puts King and Settles back at the table and personally I've heard all the bullshit I care to hear
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Post by TonyV on Oct 14, 2011 23:45:23 GMT -5
Sorry - I modified your post instead of responding.
I REALLY understand your frustration. If it continues use earplugs at work.
However, in this close a count - every vote counts. Please vote people! We are not a union unless every voice is heard.
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Post by beenaround on Oct 15, 2011 7:44:17 GMT -5
Yesterday I read in an article that Bob King explained that he was in a rush to get this good contract out to the membership before the economy turned sour again. If memory serves correct the last time the economy turned sour our Union was more than happy to oblige Ford Motor and reopen the contract.Then urged us to give back so the company could get back on their feet. Well then, what happens when the economy turns sour this time?
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Post by reedycreekbuc on Oct 15, 2011 7:58:32 GMT -5
If it happens again, Ford will get money from the US government this time. Then the government will force concessions on us.
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Post by beenaround on Oct 15, 2011 8:01:29 GMT -5
Anyone have any thoughts on NOT receiving a raise for a decade. Thats what is going to be if this great contract is ratified.
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Post by dave7293 on Oct 15, 2011 8:01:40 GMT -5
Yesterday I read in an article that Bob King explained that he was in a rush to get this good contract out to the membership before the economy turned sour again. If memory serves correct the last time the economy turned sour our Union was more than happy to oblige Ford Motor and reopen the contract.Then urged us to give back so the company could get back on their feet. Well then, what happens when the economy turns sour this time? Good question...And one funny thing is this story about Ford`s CEO Mulally`s outlook on the economy. It was just two weeks ago. King debunked again. bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/29/8035917-fords-ceo-mulally-sees-sunny-outlook-for-economyAnd this story about Oil prices rise near $87 as recession fears ease. One day ago. finance.yahoo.com/news/Oil-prices-rise-near-87-as-apf-357215621.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=5&asset=&ccode=So while he was negotiating the Ford contract Mulally`s outlook on the economy was and still is "SUNNY"...Maybe King should of asked Mulally what he thought of the economy before he through us under the bus....
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Post by mazroth on Oct 15, 2011 8:27:09 GMT -5
My thoughts:
In the past, yes, Ford needed us to give up for them to stay on their feet. We did, now they dont want to give any back. Why? Their competitors have not, so they want to stay competitive.....I wonder. Government has stepped in, arbitrators can now be used, but what they are calling fair is like this: Does the government everyone step in say at Lowes, and Home Depot, and H&S hardware, and other hardware stores all need to stay competitive, and should be on even ground by pay, benefits? Does walmart, target, kmart, meyers all do this? No, they run their business how they see fit, its a sink or swim world. If kmart did something, and started making billions over walmart, would it be fair for kmart employees to get paid more? I think so, they are making more and doing better. Why since Ford is doing better, do we have to stay equal to those not doing well? So, one reason for my no vote.
If its true they are taking more from retiree's, another big reason for a NO vote from me. When we retire, you want the low tier taking from us? Think about it, retiree's need to be left alone. NO vote.
Last time I voted yes, I was given a promise, and was lied to, promise wasnt kept, so, no, when certain things are said, I dont trust them. When trust is broken, its hard to earn back. We have even had classes on this in the last two months for QL training. Lack of trust, NO vote.
Ford appears to be doing well, yet things keep getting taken from on on contracts, I dont feel we need to give up anymore. When we gave up before, ford gave up things, salary gave up things, then things got better, Ford got paid, Salary got their things back, but they want to still take from us....BIG NO...
They swore to us the grievance was to be settled, it hasnt been. If it was settled before these contracts, we would have gotten more. Now, that arbitrator is in control, they see GM is decided on their contract, Chrysler is getting even less, and we want more, if we get more, I bet we get next to nothing back, though they oh us since everyone else was rewarded and we were not.
Guess what, if the economy does take a turn for the worse, those that negotiated this deal will be willing to give up more, I can just feel it. I think its funny that IUAW have gotten raises over all of the recession, and have not given up nothing.
Overall, im not happy with the work they(IUAW) have done. Not happy with the way Ford has treated us. Yeah, id rather have Bill Ford back. He had everything set in motion anyway, and just hired Mually to do it.
So overall, Im voting no, yes, we could strike. My wages support my family, there is other income, but not enough to support what we have. I have two little kids. If I have to walk the picket line I will. Just sometimes, you have to take a stand, eventually we may not have ground to stand on, but I feel Ford could loose momentum (sales/market share/profits) if we strike. And they have debt to pay, and I wouldnt want to loose that momentum if I were them.
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jagr2
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Post by jagr2 on Oct 15, 2011 8:34:52 GMT -5
With a hundred plus day supply of trucks it would probably save the company money for us to strike. If we're off for 4 weeks, I just don't see us winning that back. We'll probably have down time anyway.
If we're off for 4 weeks, thats 3200. If we were paid for 4 weeks thats at least the same. That's a 6400 dollar difference. I too, will accept the majority but this is something to consider.
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Post by almost30 on Oct 15, 2011 8:42:59 GMT -5
I usually don't repost anything in one of my threads, but I've had a few co-workers call me out about my "approval" of this contract. I never said I was supporting nor did I say I was not supporting the agreement. I just made my personal thoughts known. We're all in a different situation, monetarily and personally. I'm really close to retiring so my situation is a lot different than someone with 12 years seniority. I was called "selfish" and "self-serving" (two of the nicer things I was called). But at this stage of the game, it IS about my family and me. And it should be about yours too. I won't be around for another contract so I've either got to live with this one or run the risk of being on strike when my time to retire rolls around. Not too sure how that would play out. "not getting a raise in over a decade"...yeah..that sucks big time since the cost of living hasn't exactly been stagnant. We've all lost a lot of buying power over this stretch, but (oh hell, here it comes) we have worked steady and maintained an income. There are lots of people who have lost homes, cars, and any sense of worth because they lost their jobs in this economy. "I'd approve this contract if King's and Settles' resignation were stapled to it"...I mean, really? How would that make this skunk smell any better? "this contract is better than GM or Chrysler is offered"...yeah, it is, but, it's like asking a guy is he'd rather be shot or stabbed. None of the three are bona fide "whoopee" contracts. Like my grampa always said, "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye." And we've all been poked with that stick over the past 4 years. "ford will come back asking for more concession"...probably, if the economy tanks again But my response THEN would be..."Sorry, I've given you all I am willing to give. You agreed to this contract just as we did. Now, live with it like we've lived with the previous concession. See if Alan Mulally will chip in a few of his million buck." This is starting to ramble so I'll just conclude by saying this... Again, look at your personal situation, be objective and take the anger and indignation from your decision when you vote. I'm not going to proclaim loudly "VOTE NO" or "VOTE YES". No one can tell you how you should vote because everyone has a different situation. How am I going to vote? That's why they put those curtains at the voting booth... Now I need a nap.
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Post by Ktp1989 on Oct 15, 2011 10:03:25 GMT -5
Great post Almost30, (did I just post that?) LOL That's a calm level headed view, do you really work at Ford?? LOL It seems that many people are frustrated with the US economic situation, and are voicing their anger at the UAW, and they are just the messengers with bad news. The negotiators on Fords side are very good at their jobs, they only offer just enough. Not anymore than the very least it will take to get a deal. The UAW has almost no bargaining position, American politics have made sure the laws are on the companies side. Still undecided here also... As a skilled trades worker myself, I can't see anyway to vote "for" this agreement. We pattern bargain to the bottom with GM and Chrysler, but not on many important items...namely skilled trades workers keeping their payscale when they are forced back to the line. Didn't see any guarentees for apprentices like the GM contract and the entire mechanical trades issues makes this easy for me to vote no....not to mention the rest of the contract really doesn't return anything we gave up.
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Post by dave7293 on Oct 15, 2011 10:37:19 GMT -5
My thoughts: In the past, yes, Ford needed us to give up for them to stay on their feet. We did, now they dont want to give any back. Why? Their competitors have not, so they want to stay competitive.....I wonder. Government has stepped in, arbitrators can now be used, but what they are calling fair is like this: Does the government everyone step in say at Lowes, and Home Depot, and H&S hardware, and other hardware stores all need to stay competitive, and should be on even ground by pay, benefits? Does walmart, target, kmart, meyers all do this? No, they run their business how they see fit, its a sink or swim world. If kmart did something, and started making billions over walmart, would it be fair for kmart employees to get paid more? I think so, they are making more and doing better. Why since Ford is doing better, do we have to stay equal to those not doing well? So, one reason for my no vote. If its true they are taking more from retiree's, another big reason for a NO vote from me. When we retire, you want the low tier taking from us? Think about it, retiree's need to be left alone. NO vote. Last time I voted yes, I was given a promise, and was lied to, promise wasnt kept, so, no, when certain things are said, I dont trust them. When trust is broken, its hard to earn back. We have even had classes on this in the last two months for QL training. Lack of trust, NO vote. Ford appears to be doing well, yet things keep getting taken from on on contracts, I dont feel we need to give up anymore. When we gave up before, ford gave up things, salary gave up things, then things got better, Ford got paid, Salary got their things back, but they want to still take from us....BIG NO... They swore to us the grievance was to be settled, it hasnt been. If it was settled before these contracts, we would have gotten more. Now, that arbitrator is in control, they see GM is decided on their contract, Chrysler is getting even less, and we want more, if we get more, I bet we get next to nothing back, though they oh us since everyone else was rewarded and we were not. Guess what, if the economy does take a turn for the worse, those that negotiated this deal will be willing to give up more, I can just feel it. I think its funny that IUAW have gotten raises over all of the recession, and have not given up nothing. Overall, im not happy with the work they(IUAW) have done. Not happy with the way Ford has treated us. Yeah, id rather have Bill Ford back. He had everything set in motion anyway, and just hired Mually to do it. So overall, Im voting no, yes, we could strike. My wages support my family, there is other income, but not enough to support what we have. I have two little kids. If I have to walk the picket line I will. Just sometimes, you have to take a stand, eventually we may not have ground to stand on, but I feel Ford could loose momentum (sales/market share/profits) if we strike. And they have debt to pay, and I wouldnt want to loose that momentum if I were them. Thank you !!! Amen!!!
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Post by dave7293 on Oct 15, 2011 10:45:04 GMT -5
I usually don't repost anything in one of my threads, but I've had a few co-workers call me out about my "approval" of this contract. I never said I was supporting nor did I say I was not supporting the agreement. I just made my personal thoughts known. We're all in a different situation, monetarily and personally. I'm really close to retiring so my situation is a lot different than someone with 12 years seniority. I was called "selfish" and "self-serving" (two of the nicer things I was called). But at this stage of the game, it IS about my family and me. And it should be about yours too. I won't be around for another contract so I've either got to live with this one or run the risk of being on strike when my time to retire rolls around. Not too sure how that would play out. "not getting a raise in over a decade"...yeah..that sucks big time since the cost of living hasn't exactly been stagnant. We've all lost a lot of buying power over this stretch, but (oh hell, here it comes) we have worked steady and maintained an income. There are lots of people who have lost homes, cars, and any sense of worth because they lost their jobs in this economy. "I'd approve this contract if King's and Settles' resignation were stapled to it"...I mean, really? How would that make this skunk smell any better? "this contract is better than GM or Chrysler is offered"...yeah, it is, but, it's like asking a guy is he'd rather be shot or stabbed. None of the three are bona fide "whoopee" contracts. Like my grampa always said, "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye." And we've all been poked with that stick over the past 4 years. "ford will come back asking for more concession"...probably, if the economy tanks again But my response THEN would be..."Sorry, I've given you all I am willing to give. You agreed to this contract just as we did. Now, live with it like we've lived with the previous concession. See if Alan Mulally will chip in a few of his million buck." This is starting to ramble so I'll just conclude by saying this... Again, look at your personal situation, be objective and take the anger and indignation from your decision when you vote. I'm not going to proclaim loudly "VOTE NO" or "VOTE YES". No one can tell you how you should vote because everyone has a different situation. How am I going to vote? That's why they put those curtains at the voting booth... Now I need a nap. almost30...I work with a lady that retires next year and I told her I wouldn't blame her for voting yes because of the $50,000. and I stick to that. You are right... As much as I hate this contract I do still have 13 years left to try to better it next time. Enjoy your retirement you`ve earned it !
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Post by mazroth on Oct 15, 2011 12:06:37 GMT -5
Was at the meeting a short while, sitting there holding my 2 year old in my lap, hearing some scary stuff at first, then went to q n a. One thing I heard that struck a cord, no one, even those talking to us from the table up front, no one likes this two tier system, Scott says, this is something we are gonna have to fight.
So, when is the right time to fight I wonder?
I feel everyone is in a different situation, I could live with this contract. But it really bothers me taking from someone who has been in here, did their time and left, yet we can still vote their benefits away. Can you feel what the future is gonna hold? Unity is the unions strong point, divided we get weaker. Two tiers working, and most of us retire, I see them voting our benefits away to better things for them. This is why all of this two tier stuff is very bad.
Why cant retiree's vote? Maybe they should be able to.
My mind has not been changed.
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Post by beenaround on Oct 15, 2011 15:26:47 GMT -5
With a hundred plus day supply of trucks it would probably save the company money for us to strike. If we're off for 4 weeks, I just don't see us winning that back. We'll probably have down time anyway. If we're off for 4 weeks, thats 3200. If we were paid for 4 weeks thats at least the same. That's a 6400 dollar difference. I too, will accept the majority but this is something to consider.Who says there is a 100 day supply? Oh thats right, the same people that are saying they can't afford to give us a raise. Of course they would never lie, right? Remember even if we had a 100 day supply, I'm sure the hot selling Explorer doesn't nor the Focus or the Escape. All big moneymakers for Ford right now. I do not believe Ford would want to give up their market share in those respective categories due to a strike. Think about it.
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