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Post by fordmakesnosense on Feb 23, 2012 16:02:38 GMT -5
lets see lets ask the team leaders who probably wont be team leaders if it becomes a bid job and no grandfathering............and their against it.........wow who would have guessed that!!!!!!!!surely these people arent this disconnected...
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Post by fordmakesnosense on Feb 23, 2012 16:07:00 GMT -5
who would think a team leader who might not be a team leader if it became a bid job with no grandfathering ....i mean are you kidding.......
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Post by brizzel on Feb 23, 2012 19:40:26 GMT -5
TL just got from meeting with doom and gloom. No piss breaks ever. Not just ever but never ever. Any jobs created would be filled with higher seniority from other plants. I mean who wouldn't come here instead of " happy land". Looks like our local at least learned that scare tactics work. Good times ahead.
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Post by kessinger on Feb 23, 2012 20:05:29 GMT -5
Ok, as to why we met with teamleaders. As I stated in another post prior to us doing it. We have walked and talked to alot of the membership prior to the vote and were not hearing negative things. So when it got voted down, we felt maybe people were either intemidated or did not want to tell us directly so we decided to meet with the teamleaders to see if they were hearing things from their teams that we had not when we are walking around. Turns out we are not.
Teamleaders are already by election. The only way that will change it is if the membership votes to change it, and they have shown no willingness to do that.
The national language on this issue says "the local parties may need to adjust local agreements in support of work group/team implementation". Meaning we have to adjust the local to have what they want, which is: "they will be selected for this position through a jointly established process"...... So, if we didn't vote on it, we just made up our own team and teamleader rules and didn't put it to a vote you guys would be wacking on me for that. And we wouldn't do that anyway.
Marcus does it allow for 10 to 1, yes IF we have a selection process for teamleaders(as stated above) That is a package deal. We tried very hard to get the 10 to 1 with bid teamleaders and they absolutely would not do it. The only reason the company is willing to do 10-1 is if they get bid teamleaders, Bid teamleaders is what they get out of that agreement. They want this very badly teamleaders would no longer answer to the teams as they do know. 10-1 is the carrot they are hanging out to select TL's.
Mule, quit being part of the problem. Stop the old vague "they wont help" or "They are company" crap. People come here and see your vague claims and think if they fight we won't help. And thats BULLSHIT. If someone fights a job I can protect them through the whole process, I can tell them the minute we can't win the fight anymore and they can decide what they want to do based on THE TRUTH. But, you come on here and try to convince them NOT TO FIGHT cause they won't get help. Are you company? If you are walking around with no safety glasses can i help? no. But, if you got real issues we can help, or damned sure try. And if you aren't company I would appreciate you trying to be part of the solution not the problem.
And I do want to point out, No one has posted a team that wants bid teamleaders. As far as saying all of trim does, that isnt true.
For the record I think I know of one team on nightshift frame. I am just guessing they do from knowing those guys well and talking to their teamleader. I will go see them soon and see but I bet its still 50/50.
Getting out of bid jobs, we have had some negative on it but far more people seem to like that letter than do not, so I don't see that changing. But again I am 1 of 5.
As far as why vote on trades, we didn't know that it would be that big of an issue to til they voted on it. So, now we will fix it. Thats what you do.
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Post by brizzel on Feb 23, 2012 20:40:16 GMT -5
Let's put it to an actual vote. We have the machines. Two choices, bid or election. Simple as that. Why were on the subject of voting. Let's bring up the B crew stat time survey. Just two choices 4:30 or 6:30, not five like before.
That way we the membership decide.
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 23, 2012 20:41:06 GMT -5
It's very simple to never vote on bidding TLs with no grandfathering and assume u know the outcome. This particular situation has never been voted on...the membership only wants the chance to prove u right so why be so reluctant?
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Post by mulewrong on Feb 23, 2012 21:45:15 GMT -5
Mule, quit being part of the problem. Stop the old vague "they wont help" or "They are company" crap. People come here and see your vague claims and think if they fight we won't help. And thats BULLSHIT. If someone fights a job I can protect them through the whole process, I can tell them the minute we can't win the fight anymore and they can decide what they want to do based on THE TRUTH. But, you come on here and try to convince them NOT TO FIGHT cause they won't get help. Are you company? If you are walking around with no safety glasses can i help? no. But, if you got real issues we can help, or damned sure try. And if you aren't company I would appreciate you trying to be part of the solution not the problem. And I do want to point out, No one has posted a team that wants bid teamleaders. As far as saying all of trim does, that isnt true. For the record I think I know of one team on nightshift frame. I am just guessing they do from knowing those guys well and talking to their teamleader. I will go see them soon and see but I bet its still 50/50. . Kessinger----- Call me out as starting shit, I'm not going to get pissed and fly off the handle. I know what I know, and the stuff I've reported to the management team and the union health and safety here would not fly at the plants in DETROIT... NOT AT THE ROUGE, NOR MTP (MAP) Many of these jobs would be shut down, doubled up until they were fixed. And here it's we're working on them, WE'LL FIGHT WITH YOU while the poor production person struggles with the job. The people here have been conditioned to accept junk, struggle with their jobs, till there is no fight left in them! They shouldn't have to fight the job, THAT'S WHY THEY PAY DUES, THE UNION IS SUPPOSED TO FIGHT, PUT THE JOB IN DISPUTE, MEASURE... walk distance, lift effort, check and see if all safe guards are in place. And just like this thread, the BC keeps saying TO the people I don't see it, that's not what I get when I walk around talking to people... It's those messed up people from other plants that cause issues here... Yeah heaven forbid someone bring in perspective contrary to this administrations POPULAR BELIEFS... You want to know where the pulse lies on the team leaders conduct a formal survey.... YOU want to question me on health and safety issues, LOOK at the 50 issues I've already brought up... AND NOT ONCE WAS I WRONG!!! And don't think the company wasn't "chomping at the Bit" for me to be wrong...You want to call me out cool, I'm ok with that, but the Unions claim we're here to support you is BS YOU hear what you want to hear,as this tread points out.... YOU want the pulse of the people conduct a formal survey, or something to that effect... but the I'm not hearing that in my walks, doesn't leave me warm and fuzzy. And if the people here ever had the opportunity to work jobs with acceptable work effort they... OH forget it... let the Bargaining Structure here stay in denial... good luck push that contract through, You seem pretty good at it... ENOUGH SAID
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 23, 2012 22:13:32 GMT -5
And I am grateful we have people like you that are not afraid to speak up for what's right...all the while helping out your union brothers/sisters. Keep up the great work!
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Post by Jr on Feb 23, 2012 23:13:16 GMT -5
Marcus does it allow for 10 to 1, yes IF we have a selection process for teamleaders(as stated above) That is a package deal. We tried very hard to get the 10 to 1 with bid teamleaders and they absolutely would not do it. The only reason the company is willing to do 10-1 is if they get bid teamleaders, Bid teamleaders is what they get out of that agreement. They want this very badly teamleaders would no longer answer to the teams as they do know. 10-1 is the carrot they are hanging out to select TL's. Ok Let me get this right...... The union tried very hard to get 10 to 1 with bid team leaders But the company will not do that.... But they only way to get 10 to 1 is to bid team leaders which is what the company wants....... AM I missing something here
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Post by trinitus on Feb 23, 2012 23:43:49 GMT -5
Marcus does it allow for 10 to 1, yes IF we have a selection process for teamleaders(as stated above) That is a package deal. We tried very hard to get the 10 to 1 with bid teamleaders and they absolutely would not do it. The only reason the company is willing to do 10-1 is if they get bid teamleaders, Bid teamleaders is what they get out of that agreement. They want this very badly teamleaders would no longer answer to the teams as they do know. 10-1 is the carrot they are hanging out to select TL's. Ok Let me get this right...... The union tried very hard to get 10 to 1 with bid team leaders But the company will not do that.... But they only way to get 10 to 1 is to bid team leaders which is what the company wants....... AM I missing something here No JR, you haven't missed anythig. It is just the standard double talk from our local leader's. kind of like that fuzzy math they use. To me bidding TL's is a win/win. Membership wins Bid jobs and a new ratio of 10 to 1. The company wins because they get to bid out TL'S. HHMMM, maybe I am missing the same thing you are.
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Post by merepeasant on Feb 24, 2012 1:02:30 GMT -5
I would like to vote for my team leader.
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Post by merepeasant on Feb 24, 2012 1:09:07 GMT -5
If there are people with Seniority who want to be team leaders why not vote them in?
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Post by cmt7000 on Feb 24, 2012 1:51:44 GMT -5
I would like to bid on a team leader job and kiss the bosses ass every night. And I would make a lot more money than I am right now.
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Post by kessinger on Feb 24, 2012 1:54:40 GMT -5
Ok Mule know I know who you are and I am acutaly a fan of yours. So everyone knows, Mule has done tons to make this plant safer. In doing so he has ruffled a lot of feathers with managment, I would even say he has been hated by many of them, I think you will agree with that mule. AND NEVER BEEN WROTE UP ONCE THAT I KNOW OF!!!!!!!!!!!
When you called me and said you did not want to fix that hoist/crane for a safety reason, from my memory I supported you 100%. In the end corporate/IUAW safety made a different decision, but you got the support you asked for from me.
You are a perfect example of someone fighting them AND NOT GETTING IN TROUBLE!!!!!!! And THANK YOU FOR FIGHTING.
Jr, that was a mis type, we fought for elected teamleaders with 10-1.
Still no team listed that wants bid TL's
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Post by ronperry on Feb 24, 2012 3:39:00 GMT -5
Mule from your post we would probably get along real well. The only disagreement I have with you is not having the support of the Bargaining Committee. I can honestly say I have never contacted any of them with an issue that they have not made an effort to help. Sometimes I win sometimes I lose but they try. I do believe a lot of times committeemen are reluctant to get them involved and many times they are not told the whole story. The BC and I do have a differing opinion on one issue but I think a union meeting would be a better forum to discuss that than here. I do commend you for standing up for issues. Wish I had never been disciplined for that but I probably don’t do it in as smart a fashion as you.
As far as bid/electing team leaders I may be wrong, whether we like it or not I believe that ship has sailed. Don’t know why there are not more KTP originals that visit this board but I think most on here are LAP transplants. I think it would be great to take a survey. I might be surprised but I believe the membership here has made it very clear they want it to remain elected and that is what the BC has to go by. If I am remembering correctly the BC wanted it to be bid. Regardless of who you like or who you don’t like right now this indecisiveness is showing ford our weakness. Let’s come together as one union and make a stand on the issue in front of us. No matter what you think of our union leadership or the grievance. Well said Gator!
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Post by marcus on Feb 24, 2012 4:37:19 GMT -5
Can we vote on fork lift and repair please.To many people have more time than me and ill never get one
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 24, 2012 5:18:25 GMT -5
Kessinger: you and and your predecessors poisoned the well.
TL as a bid should NEVER have been an issue. Seniority should count. It was a KTP 862 bargaining team that negotiated a contract that allowed TL's to be elected (speak to Mike Abel about that). And now you have a mess on your hands.
With regard to the KTP/LAP transfer letter: the KTP BC has YET to be honest with the membership about that situation. The FACT is that allowing LAP brothers and sisters to come to KTP rather than take a layoff and collect unemployment and SUB while their plant retooled for a new product was A NON-CONTRACTUAL "GENTLEMAN'S" AGREEMENT. But, for some reason as yet unexplained, Steve Stone and the LAP BC are opposed to a more liberal transfer of 862 brothers and sisters the other way. In fact, Steve Stone and the LAP BC RENEGED on an earlier transfer agreement. So level with us: what were the reasons for the change of heart? It should be a simple matter: count the number of former LAP workers who elected to stay at KTP rather than return to their basic unit and that is the number of KTP workers eligible to transfer to LAP.
The KTP BC, past and present, are responsible for opening Pandora's box.
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 24, 2012 5:24:51 GMT -5
P.S. Back in the day when a UAW bargaining team came to a "non-contractual agreement" with the Company over some issue your rank-and-file fathers and grandfathers called it "cutting a hog."
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Post by ScottR@KTP on Feb 24, 2012 6:11:59 GMT -5
And that is what this plants is missing...old schoolers with old school mentality...great post!
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Post by remember1976 on Feb 24, 2012 7:08:11 GMT -5
The reason such deals so often stink is because promises can be made but, since there is no contract language, there is no way for rank-and-file to hold either party to his word.
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Post by badcat555 on Feb 24, 2012 8:20:57 GMT -5
Why cant we just take a membership vote to see if we want to bid team leader jobs or not?.. The committee is asking the TL's and of course they are going to say no.. they don't want to loose their jobs. Seniority should get these jobs not popularity or ass kissing!
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Post by marcus on Feb 24, 2012 9:10:35 GMT -5
Even if the teamleader being bid is voted down it not right.Seniority people will always be the minority.
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Post by trinitus on Feb 24, 2012 9:36:00 GMT -5
I think everyone is missing the whole and quite frankly I might have missed as well. Well until now I think, Correct me if I am wrong but if the Company wanted the team leader's bid and they said they would go to a 10 to 1 ratio if we did this why not do it?
Of course they won't go for a 10 to 1 ratio with the team leaders being elected. Of course we all want smaller teams, they are easier to manage, makes sense I think.
Bid the Team Leader jobs out make them go to a 10 to 1 ratio and hold them to it, it is just that simple...........wait I almost forgot where I was. That won't happen, these leader's are too afraid to ruffle feather's. I guess they are more afraid of Labor Relation's than the membership being right.
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Post by lap65 on Feb 24, 2012 9:43:21 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen an answer to Marcus question yet, he's being sarcastic but he makes a good point. Why are you voting on it in the first place? Do we vote on fork drivers or repair? A better job with better pay should always be a seniority job in a union plant, it should not matter if 90% are against it its a seniority issue & not a democratic issue, that's what seniority is supposed to be about. On the other hand if you are going to vote on it, then vote on it without the grandfather clause & see what happens. You cant talk to the team leaders & get the real story as many have already pointed out of course they are going to say that, & you cant come around to the areas & talk to the team either, what if they keep the same team leader & he hears that they wanted to bid it out, now they have to deal with him for pee breaks etc. so many wont tell you what they really feel face to face. Put it to a vote without the grandfathering & see, or do what should have been done in the beginning forget the vote & make seniority count for what its supposed to count for.
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Post by ktpgrunt on Feb 24, 2012 10:11:20 GMT -5
I still dont understand why if a person wants to give up a bid job there has to be a limit on the number of people that can do it. it should be unlimited. I took a bid to get off the line because there was no way i could hold day shift. now 4 years later i can hold dayshift but cant get off my bid job. by only allowing eight people every six months is a joke. hell where im at there r at least 20 people ready to give up their jobs. so now it will take me another 3 years to go back to the line. Make this unlimited u have plenty of people that would kill for a bid job!!!!!!
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Post by Ex-metalman on Feb 24, 2012 10:16:16 GMT -5
I have to agree 100%.It should be a rite to have senority and geta BETTER HIGHER PAYING job.Not a vote.To much ass kissing goes on between TLs and Management.Ive actually had a sup. ask me and some of my team members why we keep voting in the same guy??They dont like him cause he doesnt kiss ALL there asses.So I say thats why cause You dont like him,When the TLs are laughing and joking with management on the radio all night its not good for the team.Yeah you may get an extra day off or leave early.But in the long run your TL and management will f you.The highest team member should be asked if he wants to be team leader if not go to the next and so on etc.Why wouldnt you wanna make more money in this shit hole if you could? ?Just sayin
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Post by Ex-metalman on Feb 24, 2012 10:23:11 GMT -5
Yes thats true why cant you give up a bid job???/Ive had one for 6 years and Ive NEVER EVER BEEN TRAINED FOR ANYTHING.And I do METAL REPAIR.Theres plenty of 98 and 99 guys that would like to have a bid job since they are stuck on nights forever.And Im sure theres some BROKE DOWN 93 AND 95 ERS that are almost crippled that would take a bid to get off the line.
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Post by mulewrong on Feb 24, 2012 10:29:05 GMT -5
Ok Mule know I know who you are and I am acutaly a fan of yours. So everyone knows, Mule has done tons to make this plant safer. In doing so he has ruffled a lot of feathers with managment, I would even say he has been hated by many of them, I think you will agree with that mule. AND NEVER BEEN WROTE UP ONCE THAT I KNOW OF!!!!!!!!!!! When you called me and said you did not want to fix that hoist/crane for a safety reason, from my memory I supported you 100%. In the end corporate/IUAW safety made a different decision, but you got the support you asked for from me. You are a perfect example of someone fighting them AND NOT GETTING IN TROUBLE!!!!!!! And THANK YOU FOR FIGHTING. Jr, that was a mis type, we fought for elected teamleaders with 10-1. Still no team listed that wants bid TL's Kess you are correct... And I'm actually a fan of yours as well, (Group Hug Here) no one forces you to come on here and take abuse. I've worked committee jobs, you receive a lot of abuse, and a big shout out to Rodney Janes and S. Eskridge TOO. With that said I don't always agree with everything my wife says, but I still crawl into bed with her at nite. AND... If safety is number one, why would it ruffle feathers to report issues....(COSTS is No.1 as they manage the business) No trouble... Transferred to off shift when I had the seniority to hold shift, tried to write me up for running stop sign on 3 wheeled bike, forced out of dept, company email confiscated by company, days off request denied told (they will not approve day off request) and always told (They're watching you).... So sorry while I respect the bargaining structure efforts here, I don't always agree with all their actions.... The management team here tries to beat up the membership and our union is being too respectful... Respect is a two way street.... IMO Team Leader , seniority, granting off days, is more about fair treatment that is missing. Our big brother the Union maybe too politically correct...
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Post by mulewrong on Feb 24, 2012 10:33:41 GMT -5
Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen an answer to Marcus question yet, he's being sarcastic but he makes a good point. Why are you voting on it in the first place? Do we vote on fork drivers or repair? A better job with better pay should always be a seniority job in a union plant, it should not matter if 90% are against it its a seniority issue & not a democratic issue, that's what seniority is supposed to be about. On the other hand if you are going to vote on it, then vote on it without the grandfather clause & see what happens. You cant talk to the team leaders & get the real story as many have already pointed out of course they are going to say that, & you cant come around to the areas & talk to the team either, what if they keep the same team leader & he hears that they wanted to bid it out, now they have to deal with him for pee breaks etc. so many wont tell you what they really feel face to face. Put it to a vote without the grandfathering & see, or do what should have been done in the beginning forget the vote & make seniority count for what its supposed to count for. Bravo Well Said!
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Post by Jr on Feb 24, 2012 10:36:34 GMT -5
Our big brother the Union maybe too politically correct... Totally agree and that happens on both sides of the City (lap)
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