|
Post by TonyV on May 11, 2012 23:23:18 GMT -5
1) Why would the company and union officials allow business as usual (Adding work - stressing employees - pushing agendas - etc.) when there was a contract vote coming? It raises stress and passion, always a negative after a bitter national agreement.
2) If one party that bargained (Company or Union) did not like their position with this contract, could it be they pushed the buttons of the vocal, such as myself? I'm feeling like a pawn now!
3) Why would they present the identical contract minus a couple points if it failed before? Did one side wish for it to fail again to work under the old agreement?
4) Everyone - management and union alike on the floor - feels vulnerable. Why would both parties butt heads at a time that the leaders need to agree? It is counter productive and leaves the customer at risk. Unacceptable.
5) Why would the average Joe on the floor - bitter from the nation agreement - trust either party involved at this time? Maybe a cooling off period is needed.
6) Why would IUAW or Corporate interject items that may cause this contract to fail? Is Louisville becoming a battle ground for the enjoyment of either party up north? I question this personally with LAP under V.O. control. Shame on either if this is the case.
I still feel the original Local agreement was close to fair for both sides. I'm still scratching my head why it did not pass the first time. I thought the national agreement should have nose dived, however.
I would like to hear questions from the people on the floor, ones that do not normally interject. Maybe it's time to raise new questions, gather information, and work together for the customer. Without this, no one has a job.
|
|
|
Post by ontheline4ever on May 12, 2012 2:57:32 GMT -5
Being an average joe, morale on the floor is pretty damn bad. Just my opinion but lots of people were scared into voting for the national because of "Jimmy doesn't negotiate, Jimmy Settles" comments. I believe lots of us are bitter with the lack of visibility of our bc. We see them at election time and national contract time. That's about it! They need to get out of the offices and on the floor to get back in touch with the people they represent. I agree with you that the local proposal is not that bad, people seem to have voted it down out of spite. Just my opinion once again.
|
|
|
Post by lucifer on May 12, 2012 6:11:08 GMT -5
Some people are bitter about the International contract, and they will continue to vote no on everything until that changes, but for the rest of us, IT'S THE TEAMLEADER ISSUE.... One word, Grandfather. 4 years ago that's what shot it down, it was removed, the contract passed. This time, the people want the bid jobs, they want them now, not 2yrs down the road. Bid the TL jobs without a grandfather clause and the contract will pass...
|
|
|
Post by lapfinal79 on May 12, 2012 8:32:58 GMT -5
Just keep building quality trucks, you guys do a great job and make Ford a great profit!
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on May 12, 2012 8:56:44 GMT -5
1) Why would the company and union officials allow business as usual (Adding work - stressing employees - pushing agendas - etc.) when there was a contract vote coming? It raises stress and passion, always a negative after a bitter national agreement. 2) If one party that bargained (Company or Union) did not like their position with this contract, could it be they pushed the buttons of the vocal, such as myself? I'm feeling like a pawn now! 3) Why would they present the identical contract minus a couple points if it failed before? Did one side wish for it to fail again to work under the old agreement? 4) Everyone - management and union alike on the floor - feels vulnerable. Why would both parties butt heads at a time that the leaders need to agree? It is counter productive and leaves the customer at risk. Unacceptable. 5) Why would the average Joe on the floor - bitter from the nation agreement - trust either party involved at this time? Maybe a cooling off period is needed. 6) Why would IUAW or Corporate interject items that may cause this contract to fail? Is Louisville becoming a battle ground for the enjoyment of either party up north? I question this personally with LAP under V.O. control. Shame on either if this is the case. I still feel the original Local agreement was close to fair for both sides. I'm still scratching my head why it did not pass the first time. I thought the national agreement should have nose dived, however. I would like to hear questions from the people on the floor, ones that do not normally interject. Maybe it's time to raise new questions, gather information, and work together for the customer. Without this, no one has a job. 1) Because neither care one iota about your morale or opinion. 2) Don't totally get your 2nd question, but I will never understand why the company wants to add jobs...and our union is against that when that's all our dumbass leaders up north want...more union due paying members...bid TLs, no grandfathering. 3) More proof they don't give a shit what you or I want...and their egos have gotten so large, this is the result. Sounds like to me our local has completely quit on us. I've been witnessing this for almost 3 years. 4) I don't see the company feeling vulnerable at all. They want to ADD jobs and our union says, "fuck that, our TLs don't want that." It's our union that has rolled over and stopped representing the majority. 5) Cooling off? It will take much more than time to cool heads...it's gonna take COLA or a pay raise before heads are cooled. No coin or lunch or pat on the back will ever erase our piece of shit national agreement that Settles scared ppl into voting yes. I'm sure they will go and ask the TLs one more time if they want their jobs bid with no grandfathering...and we will vote again. Maybe they will remove the gatorade machines this time...and add a new t-shirt for all yes voters?
|
|
|
Post by Ex-metalman on May 12, 2012 10:49:41 GMT -5
If anybody read the local business section yesterday it showed Bill Ford and Allen Mullouy boasting about the CUTS WE have made and the PROFITS THEY have made I think that would make anyone bitter enough to go vote NO.29 million dollars and WE havent had a raise in 7 or 8 years.Come on!!!!I know the local dont play into that but I think the majority of the people that voted YES on the Natl. are starting to see the light.Just my thoughts though.
|
|
|
Post by JoePieper on May 12, 2012 12:58:28 GMT -5
As far as the National goes, I voted NO. The company sat at that bargaining table and cried about not having enough money to give veteran employees a raise, yet new hire wages get increased. No COLA either. IUAW let gave in and we got screwed. Right after it was ratified, 20,000+ SALARY get huge bonuses AND pay raises. Now if they couldnt afford to give us raises how did that make any sense. And the June and December bonuses were just a way to appease us. I want a raise, I want COLA reinstated. As for UAW officers having egos, two words, TERM LIMIT. Bargaining Committee and above should serve no more than TWO terms.
|
|
|
Post by trinitus on May 12, 2012 13:24:57 GMT -5
As far as the National goes, I voted NO. The company sat at that bargaining table and cried about not having enough money to give veteran employees a raise, yet new hire wages get increased. No COLA either. IUAW let gave in and we got screwed. Right after it was ratified, 20,000+ SALARY get huge bonuses AND pay raises. Now if they couldnt afford to give us raises how did that make any sense. And the June and December bonuses were just a way to appease us. I want a raise, I want COLA reinstated. As for UAW officers having egos, two words, TERM LIMIT. Bargaining Committee and above should serve no more than TWO terms. One term if they fail to appease the membership. International President's should be voted in by all the locals not by delegates. Our delegates are no more than an extension of local leadership aho want's no more than to be there theirselves.
|
|
|
Post by JoePieper on May 12, 2012 17:07:19 GMT -5
As far as the National goes, I voted NO. The company sat at that bargaining table and cried about not having enough money to give veteran employees a raise, yet new hire wages get increased. No COLA either. IUAW let gave in and we got screwed. Right after it was ratified, 20,000+ SALARY get huge bonuses AND pay raises. Now if they couldnt afford to give us raises how did that make any sense. And the June and December bonuses were just a way to appease us. I want a raise, I want COLA reinstated. As for UAW officers having egos, two words, TERM LIMIT. Bargaining Committee and above should serve no more than TWO terms. One term if they fail to appease the membership. International President's should be voted in by all the locals not by delegates. Our delegates are no more than an extension of local leadership aho want's no more than to be there theirselves. That sounds even better trinitus. And yes the Pres and VP should be voted on by ALL members from ALL represented companies.
|
|
|
Post by ktpelec on May 12, 2012 18:11:42 GMT -5
Americans just keep believing they have to give everything to keep the corporate world going, it affects many more than just Ford workers...
|
|
|
Post by hayrakekid on May 12, 2012 19:54:41 GMT -5
Seems to me the reason the national contract passed is because people look at that signing bonus and get BLINDED. People that voted yes don't look at the picture down the road. they look at that signing bonus and forget about 6 minutes on hour, holidays, WORK STANDARDS, and everything else I did'nt mentioned. Maybe people will vote NO and think next time when they have to use a fucking BLENDER to make supper they will figure it out. Fuck this local agreement. They took out transfer chance out and did'nt change a thing. Give us a chance to get out of Shawshank KTP.
|
|
|
Post by ktpelec on May 12, 2012 20:22:30 GMT -5
From what I've heard from the many, many transfers at LAP, things are not any different at KTP than any of the other Ford plants that are still in operation. The corporate world has all the leverage, a surplus of workers that will do anything to keep their families fed, and no public support for Union workers whose numbers have been shrinking for decades. Our own American people have taken our Unions power away.
|
|
|
Post by nvsked1 on May 12, 2012 21:43:14 GMT -5
The people leading this local are worthless, they don't give a rats ass about this membership. They care about staying elected and staying off the line. they try to do the minimum required to keep a minimum amount of people happy to get an agreement to pass and stay elected. They have put all their effort into backing a failed plan with team leaders because in worked in the past and it has kept them elected... the answer is simple but some effort into actually representing the membership and quit trying to sell some bs agreement.... People are tired of being playyed.
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on May 13, 2012 3:46:08 GMT -5
From what I've heard from the many, many transfers at LAP, things are not any different at KTP than any of the other Ford plants that are still in operation. The corporate world has all the leverage, a surplus of workers that will do anything to keep their families fed, and no public support for Union workers whose numbers have been shrinking for decades. Our own American people have taken our Unions power away. So what if it's the same? Maybe there's 1200 ppl that live closer to LAP? Maybe there's 1200 ppl that would love change...I know it was healthy for me. The same drive, the same plant, the same products, the same ppl...change can be a good thing. If there are 1200 ppl at KTP that would've have transferred to LAP, they should have received that opportunity prior to 1400 ppl transferring from out of state. This should have been taken care of in the national agreement...not the local.
|
|
|
Post by ktpelec on May 13, 2012 6:58:09 GMT -5
Well Polar...err I mean Scott...I was just referring to the perceived notion by some on this Forum that KTPs Union leadership is worse than any other plants. I've been here at LAP for a couple of months now and it's no different here. The new vehicle launch has superseded any past agreements and procedures, 11 hour days for production and also 12 hour days for maintenance coming soon, it's no "Happy Land" here anymore. So your plan would have left many openings at KTP, so transfers could have gone there instead? What difference would that have made? Bottom line is we are all American Ford workers, no matter where your from.
|
|
|
Post by marcus on May 13, 2012 7:27:03 GMT -5
11 hour days is plan crazy.To many hours on the line!
|
|
|
Post by marcus on May 13, 2012 7:28:46 GMT -5
And we only get paid overtime after 40 not 8 hours a day
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on May 13, 2012 7:36:10 GMT -5
Well Polar...err I mean Scott...I was just referring to the perceived notion by some on this Forum that KTPs Union leadership is worse than any other plants. I've been here at LAP for a couple of months now and it's no different here. The new vehicle launch has superseded any past agreements and procedures, 11 hour days for production and also 12 hour days for maintenance coming soon, it's no "Happy Land" here anymore. So your plan would have left many openings at KTP, so transfers could have gone there instead? What difference would that have made? Bottom line is we are all American Ford workers, no matter where your from. Difference? All the ppl at KTP that would have liked to transfer to LAP would have gotten that opportunity. We could have taken as many of the 1400 transfers as we needed at KTP. That's the only difference that needs discussing...our local does not care about its members.
|
|
|
Post by gocards on May 13, 2012 7:39:04 GMT -5
the only way I see it is Scott didn't want to give KTP people a chance to move to LAP is because that would of created more job and brought in more people with higher senority than he liked . When they realized how many people would go he did what he thought was best and opened it up to nobody. As long as the people stays the same at KTP it will always be like it is.
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on May 13, 2012 7:54:01 GMT -5
Which hurts morale and work environment at our plant. I can't tell you how many KTPers (have worked no where else) I have heard from that wanted to transfer to LAP. It wouldn't have been 1200...but what if there were 400 that wanted the chance? You don't think it hurts our plant even more to piss them off by not giving them the chance?
|
|
|
Post by ktpelec on May 13, 2012 8:01:40 GMT -5
I just didn't see those numbers of people wanting to go to LAP from KTP, and I was there many years. Sure, the people that were originally from LAP wanted to go back, that's to be expected. If it was soo good at LAP why didn't you go back? I believe the majority of people that work at KTP had located near there, I know many of the transfers from Ohio that came in 97 bought homes in the area. To have our Union try and convince the company to allow workers, probably a small number, that were trained for the existing jobs at KTP to leave there, resulting in a lot more unneeded training and possible loss of production at KTP is a fight I don't believe they could win. I got the chance to move and did because of a shorter drive to work from my home. I've second guessed my move many times. In my opinion the LAP plant is in terrible condition, located in a worse area, parking is terrible, I could go on and on. But I don't blame the Union for those problems.
|
|
|
Post by trinitus on May 13, 2012 9:59:15 GMT -5
Although I agree with ktpelec about who is to blame for him going to lap, I also understand he made that choice himself because of a shorter drive. I myself went to lap back in 08 because of the same deal, a shorter drive. I came ack to ktp because I felt it was the right thing to do in order to save a person who was hired in at lap from not getting laidoff. I would still go back to lap IF given the chance again. I voted no because of how the letter was written, I agree with Scottr, our local should have gven us the chance a few months back. Yes, it would have meant people coming in from other plants to ktp but it doesn't man they would have had higher seniority than most at ktp.
I agree that with this new product at lap it very well be not a happy place right now but that will be up to the membership to straighten it out as they go down the road. Trust me it won't take long for the worker's there to realize that. I do agree that if those people from other plant's came here to ktp, Scott E would have his hands full because as the folks from Ohio have pointed out, this place sucks. Lap people seen it, Atlanta people have seen it and with any luck the ones hired in at ktp can see it now.
|
|
|
Post by Ktp1989 on May 13, 2012 11:37:04 GMT -5
Well Polar...err I mean Scott...I was just referring to the perceived notion by some on this Forum that KTPs Union leadership is worse than any other plants. I've been here at LAP for a couple of months now and it's no different here. The new vehicle launch has superseded any past agreements and procedures, 11 hour days for production and also 12 hour days for maintenance coming soon, it's no "Happy Land" here anymore. So your plan would have left many openings at KTP, so transfers could have gone there instead? What difference would that have made? Bottom line is we are all American Ford workers, no matter where your from. I have worked at both LAP (5 years) and KTP (18 years) and they are basically one in the same...anyone that says different only says because they may have alittle better situation at one then the other...no difference in my book.
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on May 13, 2012 12:13:10 GMT -5
I just didn't see those numbers of people wanting to go to LAP from KTP, and I was there many years. Sure, the people that were originally from LAP wanted to go back, that's to be expected. If it was soo good at LAP why didn't you go back? I believe the majority of people that work at KTP had located near there, I know many of the transfers from Ohio that came in 97 bought homes in the area. To have our Union try and convince the company to allow workers, probably a small number, that were trained for the existing jobs at KTP to leave there, resulting in a lot more unneeded training and possible loss of production at KTP is a fight I don't believe they could win. I got the chance to move and did because of a shorter drive to work from my home. I've second guessed my move many times. In my opinion the LAP plant is in terrible condition, located in a worse area, parking is terrible, I could go on and on. But I don't blame the Union for those problems. I am not gonna argue whether 23 or 1000 ppl want to transfer to LAP...point of the matter is, our IUAW and our employer allowed 1400 ppl to transfer to LAP from out of the state without one KTPer being allowed the opportunity to do the same. Total garbage...I don't care who is to blame. I stayed at KTP because I got my wish...half my prison sentence at one plant...half at another to break up the monotony. My seniority is much better at KTP as long as our leaders at KTP choose to make seniority mean something. At LAP, we always had old-timers as our BC...which equals seniority meaning something. One HUGE advantage...
|
|
|
Post by ScottR@KTP on May 13, 2012 12:15:24 GMT -5
Well Polar...err I mean Scott...I was just referring to the perceived notion by some on this Forum that KTPs Union leadership is worse than any other plants. I've been here at LAP for a couple of months now and it's no different here. The new vehicle launch has superseded any past agreements and procedures, 11 hour days for production and also 12 hour days for maintenance coming soon, it's no "Happy Land" here anymore. So your plan would have left many openings at KTP, so transfers could have gone there instead? What difference would that have made? Bottom line is we are all American Ford workers, no matter where your from. I have worked at both LAP (5 years) and KTP (18 years) and they are basically one in the same...anyone that says different only says because they may have alittle better situation at one then the other...no difference in my book. Exactly the truth...both are auto assembly plants...a job, not a career. But working conditions, morale, union leadership, salary mentality, just to mention a few were all better at LAP.
|
|
|
Post by ktpelec on May 13, 2012 13:13:21 GMT -5
Myself and another Tradesman were allowed to transfer from KTP to LAP, decided by seniority. Everyone has their own personal perception about things, mine is there is very little difference between the plants and people that work there.
|
|
|
Post by intheloop on May 13, 2012 13:36:56 GMT -5
LAP may be a little different with all the transfers and new hires, but there's no way it's as bad as KTP. LAP looks for a solution to a problem, KTP looks to blame someone for it.
|
|
|
Post by nvsked1 on May 13, 2012 17:00:54 GMT -5
Why are they against 10 to 1 TL ratio? Because if they were in a position to add jobs they may have to open the plant up to transfers, and this place is worried about seniority period. They don't want someone with more seniority coming in a pushing them down the list, they don't want bid jobs, because they don't want jobs decided by seniority. Now if they could guarantee they wouldn't have to except transfers and could hire off the street that would be ok, Ky people getting jobs and they would be coming in with no seniority. Then they would tell them just lay in there and get it...., we worked hard for this 10 to 1 ratio.
sorry, no name calling...
|
|
|
Post by nvsked1 on May 13, 2012 17:04:41 GMT -5
Hey negative Karma is growing... sorry if the replies are too pointed, just offering opinions.
|
|
|
Post by ktpgal89 on May 14, 2012 16:56:56 GMT -5
taken care of...scottr
just don't appreciate the name calling..
|
|