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Post by dave7293 on May 15, 2011 20:37:50 GMT -5
Kessinger I really just wanted to make a point here.
I and Bruce both know nothing can ever be done about his issue now.The point is the plant is full of Bruce`s as far as punishment goes.
I my self have had R&W`s taken off for wrongfully being punished but still never got my money back. You can`t ask people to stop running when every time they do they end up punished and loose money that they will never see again.
Sooner or later the union is going to have to grow the same pair of balls that they tell the people they represent to have.
I and everybody else here is tired of always hearing what the union can`t do and what the company can`t do but the company still does those things with no repercussions. But the union never crosses that boundary for it`s people.
My point is actually a question . Why can the company break any rule they want and the union won`t dare break a rule or hold the company accountable for the ones they break?
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Post by kessinger on May 16, 2011 10:26:39 GMT -5
The union will break rules to. But, we have to know the situation well to do it. I have no right to stop the line except for an immediate H@S risk. But, I have stopped the line at time other than that. Such as eviroment relief once in Excursion paint. Bathroom breaks a time or two along with other reasons. But, each of those times I KNEW I had at least a little ground to stand on. Understand your rep. can be fired also.
My posts aren't intended to tell people to grow a pair. It is to inform them of their right and what can and can't be done.
I am not asking people to take a bunch of write ups. If you have read my posts on this subject I can pretty much tell you when push comes to shove if i can or can not protect you. If I turn out to be wrong and they write you up without a study then don't fight it anymore. I can tell you from experience that in the last 4 years or more they have not penalized someone for a job without a bought off study that the person has not gotten paid. Well let me say, at least one that has been brought to the attention of the Bargaining Committee, there may be one out there that was done on the sly.
The proof that I know waht I am talking about is that you had to go back ten years to show an example of someone that was penalized.
You claim "You can`t ask people to stop running when every time they do they end up punished and loose money that they will never see again" But, you can't list an example of this in the last four years. There are only two people who have been wrote up and given time off for standards that were not paid. And both of those people were told prior to the writeups that the studies were bought off and we could not win. So if you can't show an example quit trying to convince people they will get wrote up if they don't run.
******i changed my post I commented on the Bruce Hess situation and should not have it was based on second hand info.******
So tell me what rule you speak of that the company broke we haven't held them accountable for. The easy one is foreman working but we get foreman grievances paid all the time. So lets speak of specifics.
scottR, unfortunatly the umpires have ruled you can skip progression for certain situations. If you are talking on the phone and hit someone with a truck you obviously aren't going to get an R@W to start with. You have to fight every situation differently.
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Post by trinitus on May 16, 2011 11:04:43 GMT -5
I have to agree with Kess on his last post, every situation is different therefore making the penalization a little different. I don't like it but it is there.
I for one have not ever been sent home for fighting a job. Maybe I should have been sent home a few times for fighting work but to date have not been sent home. I am EXTREMELY lucky not to have been sent home I might add. There were times I should have been sent home but I guess it all depends on how you fight the added work too that makes their decision on how to penalize you. I don't run but I do the best I can even if it means stopping the line.
@ Brent, after reading your one post on here I kinda get the feeling you want to drag me into a pissing contest over the name dropping thing. I could be wrong but that is how I see it. So to help clarify what I was meaning, here is three example's off why I think name dropping is important.
EXAMPLE 1. You are my Committeeman, I see you two to three days a week. You bring me information that is relevant to the plant and when I have an issue you are there to explain it to me from a contract point of view. Yes, I might still be upset that there is nothing you can do but if you have proven to me what you say is true, through the contract book and by printing out the page for me to read. When I am in trouble with a pending R&W, you are there for me. You ask the right questions and in the end you either save me from an R&W or the penalty is less severe than what they want to do. I will know you have done your job and that makes you a good committeeman.
EXAMPLE 2. You are my committeeman and I see you at least once a week. You bring union meeting notices out to the floor but lack on some other information we need. You tell me there is nothing you an do and fail to follow up on your comment's with proof. You show up to Hearing's and don't do a whole lot but talk a little, I may get penalized or I may not so whay would you care? It isn't your ass on the line. This is the most common of most committeemen we have had. This is why your name should be dropped as a bad committeeman.
EXAMPLE . As my committeeman, you feel it is too much to ask of you to show up to give us informaion that we need. You tell us what we want to hear and when we get wrote up you do nothing at all to stop it. During hearing's you laugh and cut up with Management, sometimes at our expense and the R&W's are usually more severe than they need to be. When we call the B.C and Building Chair, you run and cover your ass with them so you don't look like a loser. This is another reason why your name should be dropped. This last has happened before and until the problem is corrected it wll happen again.
Now Brent I am not saying any of the last two pertain to you, I have never had you as a committeeman. Although, there is times when I have seen you on the floor and asked you question's, you have given me really good answer's. That does make a good committeeman.
Bottom line is, if the people who are in office fail to represent us, they need to be out of office. Either done by not electing them or making sure the B.C. and Building Chair are very aware of any situation that has arisen and let them investigate and decide on what to be done to bad committeeman. In my case I have an Attorney on speed dial, most people in the plant do not know you can sue the UAW and the person who is representing your area for failure to represent.
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Post by brenteskridge on May 16, 2011 16:40:52 GMT -5
I have to agree with Kess on his last post, every situation is different therefore making the penalization a little different. I don't like it but it is there. I for one have not ever been sent home for fighting a job. Maybe I should have been sent home a few times for fighting work but to date have not been sent home. I am EXTREMELY lucky not to have been sent home I might add. There were times I should have been sent home but I guess it all depends on how you fight the added work too that makes their decision on how to penalize you. I don't run but I do the best I can even if it means stopping the line. @ Brent, after reading your one post on here I kinda get the feeling you want to drag me into a pissing contest over the name dropping thing. I could be wrong but that is how I see it. So to help clarify what I was meaning, here is three example's off why I think name dropping is important. EXAMPLE 1. You are my Committeeman, I see you two to three days a week. You bring me information that is relevant to the plant and when I have an issue you are there to explain it to me from a contract point of view. Yes, I might still be upset that there is nothing you can do but if you have proven to me what you say is true, through the contract book and by printing out the page for me to read. When I am in trouble with a pending R&W, you are there for me. You ask the right questions and in the end you either save me from an R&W or the penalty is less severe than what they want to do. I will know you have done your job and that makes you a good committeeman. EXAMPLE 2. You are my committeeman and I see you at least once a week. You bring union meeting notices out to the floor but lack on some other information we need. You tell me there is nothing you an do and fail to follow up on your comment's with proof. You show up to Hearing's and don't do a whole lot but talk a little, I may get penalized or I may not so whay would you care? It isn't your ass on the line. This is the most common of most committeemen we have had. This is why your name should be dropped as a bad committeeman. EXAMPLE . As my committeeman, you feel it is too much to ask of you to show up to give us information that we need. You tell us what we want to hear and when we get wrote up you do nothing at all to stop it. During hearing's you laugh and cut up with Management, sometimes at our expense and the R&W's are usually more severe than they need to be. When we call the B.C and Building Chair, you run and cover your ass with them so you don't look like a loser. This is another reason why your name should be dropped. This last has happened before and until the problem is corrected it wll happen again. Now Brent I am not saying any of the last two pertain to you, I have never had you as a committeeman. Although, there is times when I have seen you on the floor and asked you question's, you have given me really good answer's. That does make a good committeeman. Bottom line is, if the people who are in office fail to represent us, they need to be out of office. Either done by not electing them or making sure the B.C. and Building Chair are very aware of any situation that has arisen and let them investigate and decide on what to be done to bad committeeman. In my case I have an Attorney on speed dial, most people in the plant do not know you can sue the UAW and the person who is representing your area for failure to represent. I think this is a great post and a great explanation of your view point. By no means will I ever try to get into a pissing match on here for someone asking a question or giving an example of something that has taken place. My objective is to be able to answer the questions that are asked with facts, or try to explain how situations get handled when they happen. I have said it before and I say it again. I make mistakes and if I do my main goal at that point is that the right thing happens for my union brothers/sisters. I don't let my pride get in the way of my job and Kess can testify to that lol. I have made wrong calls before in the past and together we fix it. I'm in the job not by my own authority. I'm in this job because you all have that authority to either keep me in office or take me out. We work for you, the members of local 862 and we will never agree on everything but at the end of the day we all want the same thing. We want a better tomorrow for our families and friends. So I strongly encourage that if you ever feel that I'm not doing the job that I was voted in to do or if you just want get your point of view across please call me at 718-6596. I invite you to my house for a cook out and it all goes good until you and my wife start in on me and then back to the grill I go lol. I'm serious about all of this and the main thing in all my jibber jabber is that I don't take things personal. I have tough skin and big shoulders. So who is bringing the steaks? Back to campaigning.
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Post by dave7293 on May 16, 2011 20:37:16 GMT -5
It`s not second hand info. I was on that team as well as 5 others. I can give you their names in person.
And all of them still work in trim. I also gave you Bruce's name and I`m sure he would vouch for my info.
And I have had on 2 occasions been wrote up for (as my union rep put it )a minor infraction but still got balance of shift and a day with a clean record at the time. I even had a boss that did not won`t to write me up but JEFF WHITE made him write me up saying he had no choice. When you have people like Jeff that are determined to do whatever they want without listing even to his own people it`s hard to get a fair process .
You can ask people around body shop that know me I don`t tell them not to fight the added work . I do the opposite. But I add save your money so you won`t be intimidated when you get time off.
I do believe a lot of union reps try their best but sometimes they are fighting a loosing battle because we as a whole let the company walk all over us every day.
How do you fight a company that makes a rule for worker on a BIG YELLOW 3 TON vehicle wear a yellow vest so people around them can see them since the 3 TON FORK LIFT is so easy to miss but the same rule magically does not apply to others on smaller easier to miss vehicle.
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Post by trinitus on May 16, 2011 21:38:21 GMT -5
@brent, well said Brother. Thanks for understanding my concern as well. dave from what I have heard, skilled trades has made the statement or aurgument that if they wear those vest and have to go into a machine, it could get caught on something and then they could be dragged into the machine or something like that. I say if they do a proper lockout they won' have to worry about that. I also noticed here lately some that ride bikes are wearing the vest but not everyone who drives a tug,or whatever wears a vest.
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Post by dave7293 on May 17, 2011 3:00:53 GMT -5
trinitus your right It`s pick and choose.
My question to the company and the union is how has drivers wearing vest and pedestrian not made us safe ?
I know it`s cheaper to make 300 or so drivers wear vest then make 3000 wear them but surely (some sarcasm) the company would not put cost ahead of safety would they.
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Post by ktpelec on May 17, 2011 7:51:11 GMT -5
@brent, well said Brother. Thanks for understanding my concern as well. dave from what I have heard, skilled trades has made the statement or aurgument that if they wear those vest and have to go into a machine, it could get caught on something and then they could be dragged into the machine or something like that. I say if they do a proper lockout they won' have to worry about that. I also noticed here lately some that ride bikes are wearing the vest but not everyone who drives a tug,or whatever wears a vest. Don't drag Skilled Trades into the vest issue. "Proper lockout" isn't that cut and dried. Depending on each particular situation, many times I have to have power on the equipment to do troubleshooting and evaluation. The vest would only hinder me in a lot of situations.
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Post by trinitus on May 17, 2011 9:41:06 GMT -5
My bad ktpelec, I guess I didn't understand how some electrians may have to have the power on in order to do the repair/work. A proper lock out is still what needs to be done to avoid any injury or worse. Remember, there is no short cuts to safety.
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Post by kessinger on May 17, 2011 10:51:51 GMT -5
dave we agree on the vests, it is silly at best. But, if if I can't prove it makes you less safe, I can't keep them from having you wear them.
I read the grievances from the situation you mentioned Dave.
And though I did not handle them I want to add two things I learned from them to this conversation.
One, he DID win his grievances, getting the penalties removed and partialy paid, he did not get all. Neither grievance even made a reference to the jobs being in dispute or overloaded. It was two jobs, flock and riv nut, and both made the argument he wasn't trained properly, NOT that the job was in dispute. Again I did not handle them or write them. The may have been in dispute but it would be AMAZING if they were and no one made mention of it as an argument for his case.
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Post by dave7293 on May 21, 2011 6:19:29 GMT -5
Kessinger.... Now I know why people talk so highly of you on the floor. You must of taking some time getting info on this issue. I don`t know of to many people in the union that would of giving it any though or time at all. I can count all of you on one hand. Thanks for the time.
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