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Post by driveshaftgrunt on Aug 12, 2011 16:16:54 GMT -5
---I did not say European countries........ I said CERTAIN European countries have higher effective tax rates, more govt spending etc. yet have "better" economies. That is to say they've done better with employment and growth. Germany is the best example. But they are an exporting economy that protected its manufacturing base, unlike the US.
My point is lower taxes don't always equal a better economy or more jobs. And higher taxes aren't always destructive to an economy. Eisenhower and Clinton both had surpluses and good economies, yet the highest tax rate was 4% higher than it is now, 35% vrs. 39%
I don't like paying taxes anymore than anybody else.
But the heart of the problem is that Americans want a certain level of "things" like SS, but do not want to pay for them. So we have to make up our mind, either pay more for what we "want", or want less........ Problem is, that isn't even the discussion. My problem with the Tea Party is that their economics is just whacked out. Even crazy at times. They're like supply-siders on steriods. They actually believe that cutting govt. spending by large amounts will help growth, when it will actually hurt growth in the near and medium term. Fine, cut spending, it has to happen anyway, but at least be honest with what that will mean.
Consider that we're at a borrowing rate of about 40% of what the federal govt. spends. I DARE you to find 40% worth of cuts that won't knock a couple of points off of growth.....or even more. Take into consideration that the largest govt. outlays are going to even get higher when the boomers retire. It is impossible to get anywhere near balancing the budget without raising taxes, and you can raise taxes without hurting the economy.....its been done repeatedly.
You will virtually eliminate the budget shortfall with a repeal of the Bush tax cuts, and the ending of military occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan, with only minor cuts elsewhere.
I hate to sound like a neo-isolationist, but we'd save a SHITLOAD of $$$ if we removed our military protection of our industrial competitors like Japan and Korea and W. Europe. Hell, start charging them.
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Post by ktpelec on Aug 12, 2011 18:41:13 GMT -5
Great post by the 'Grunt. That's explaining the situation without silly name calling and such.
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Aug 12, 2011 21:13:18 GMT -5
ktpelec is so sensitive.....well, at the risk of getting ktpelec's sensitive ass mad....I will continue the tread.... ....The very very compassionate left is so wrapped up in feeling good about themselves (note how they routinely emphasize that their opponents want women, children and the elderly to 'suffer'....some have even gone so far as to call it a 'genocide' or insist that Republicans and conservatives 'hate' ...everyone but wealthy white males. This is as pristine an example of psychological projection as you are likely to witness) that they could care less about the actual outcomes of their policies. If the economy is worse because of their frenetic spending, they quite naturally believe that spending MORE will make it better...that, and escalating the rhetoric (remember their terrible anguish about the lack of civil discourse and the conservative 'hate' not so long ago??) against those who, in good faith, are trying to deal with reality. Remember how Paul Ryan--not the specifics of his plan...becomes the lightening rod for the incivility of the progressive left. Success is not the goal; nor do they want the economy to turn around if it is the free market and reducing their profligate ways that will accomplish that end. They are all about the redistribution of wealth.... the creation of entitled victimhood groups who will blindly support them... and the expansion of big government for the sake of holding on to their power over others. Oh yes, all that and posturing. ....as for raising taxes...well lets ask Obama...... Flashback: August 5, 2009--- www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2e_1310395568If raising taxes in a recession would be “the last thing you want to do,” wouldn’t raising taxes in a struggling economy teetering on a double-dip be the second last thing you’d want to do? If Obama was right and the tax breaks in that deal freed up money for job creators to hire new workers, isn’t the reverse true? Isn’t it the case that new taxes on entrepreneurs and other job creators will leave them with less money to hire new workers? And wouldn’t raising taxes on the “wealthiest” just “put business further in a hole,” as Obama believed just two years ago? His economics were right. So why the change? |
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Post by ktpelec on Aug 13, 2011 12:39:48 GMT -5
I just don't think you make a valid point if your calling people names, just my opinion.
You cannot finance 2 so-called wars for over a decade, have the greatest population of benefit collecting seniors ever, and the lowest tax rates for the wealthiest Americans, and expect to balance the budget. The Tea Party comes off as hypocritical when they refuse to do everything it would take to help solve the problem.
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Post by driveshaftgrunt on Aug 13, 2011 13:08:20 GMT -5
jobs is interested in partisan bomb-throwing.
I'm interested in data, economics, history and reality.
"If the economy is worse because of their (libs) frentic spending....." is the kind of statement that reveals the motive of the poster.
There is no data, proof, or argument that suggest that the economy is worse because of lib spending. As opposed to con spending......
Remember the recession at the end of eight years of GOP economic policies was the worst since the Great Depression, with a revised recessionary rate of -3.5% at the worst. SO now the argument is that we need to double down on those policies? That's just insane.
I'm arguing basic macro-economic principles here. The Tea Party and far right state REPEATEDLY that a huge cut in federal spending and a further cut in tax rates on the top brackets will "help" the economy, when history and direct data suggest that is not so. A massive cut in federal spending will mean a drop in GDP. Whether that is desirable, or right, depends on your politics.
Also, you CANNOT prove that raising taxes on the top brackets will hurt the economy. In fact as top bracket rates have fallen over the past decade THE ECONOMY HAS GROWN WORSE.
By extension, Paul Ryans and the Tea Party economic policies would suggest that the more you lower taxes on the top brackets, the better the economy becomes for everyone. Again, that is not true, has never been true, and you cannot even argue that it is true. We've had 30 years of supply side, from both parties, and to suggest that it has been a good thing when you look at the data/results is just insane.
Over the last decade we've run up a huge debt, saw the middle class fall apart, shipped countless good jobs overseas, saw incomes decline for everyone EXCEPT the top brackets. The only thing supply side top bracket tax cuts do is accelerate the pace at which the top 10% acquire more and more of the nations wealth.
VIRTUALLY ALL THE GROWTH of the last 2-3 decades has gone to one place, and one place only.......the top. Even in the best of times the middle class has just treaded water. The data is there, and no amount of regurgitated cultish arguments from the Tea Party's backers can ignore the economic data.
At best, at ABSOLUTE best, we're looking at a decade or more of very, very low growth. And there is NOTHING that can change that for the better. But it can change for the worse.....
And I swear to God, this fealty that rightwinger working class people feel toward "the wealthy job creators" is the biggest load of cult-like, spoon fed horseshit I've ever seen. Our jobs situation has grown worse, and worse at EXACTLY the time the wealthy have sucked up all the nations growth and a larger and larger share of the wealth. And people are arguing that MORE of the same is a good thing? I guess the next step is for working class people to actually start sucking off the wealthy......I mean why not? Maybe they'll give us jobs then.
Oh, and FWIW, I think the Dow closed the week up a bit.
Look, Americans OVERWHELMINGLY support an increase in tax rates for the richest citizens. Some polls are in the 70% on that issue. Its not going to happen, because the vast majority of Congress are only concerned with policies that protect the richest of their constituents. Nobody wants a ton of money thrown against them in a primary, and we've seen it happen. But we're going to have to make a choice. DRAMATICALLY cut SS, Medicare and the military, which is political suicide, or raise taxes. What will acutally happen, and needs to happen, is a combination of cuts AND a raising of top rates back to where they were FOR DECADES............but the Tea Party believes, and argues that such a raise will kill the economy, and that we can just cut our way out. Watch as they hit the campaign trail arguing for further tax cuts for the rich, combined with massive cuts in SS and Medicare. They'll get murdered.
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Post by uknowit on Aug 13, 2011 17:22:19 GMT -5
job1, analspam, and marcus are brainwashed they don't understand that all politicians are selling us out, they are dead set on believing that republicans are there savior, their is no help for them. just let them go on with their one sided view
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Aug 14, 2011 9:05:00 GMT -5
......and that is why the tea party was created....remember the tea party started under Bush protesting his spending.....oh, and did I mention he was a republican....so please......conservative dont vote for saviors like Democrats blindly voted for hope and change(hows that going by the way) .....Dems are starting to realize that Obama doesn't walk on water....
.....will continue....
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Post by driveshaftgrunt on Aug 14, 2011 10:12:43 GMT -5
Lets phrase it this way. For DECADES the top rate was 39%, under Dem and Rep presidents. Under Bush it was lowereed to 35%, BECAUSE WE HAD A SURPLUS, at least that was the argument. Why would the Tea Pary object to returning the top rate to where it had been for so long? Has lowering the top rate helped anybody in anyway? Has it helped the nation financially, economically, or fiscally? How is moving tax rates back to where they'd been for years some crazy notion? And how can anyone argue that continuing to LOWER the top rates help the economy, when the opposite has proven to be true? www.salemnews.com/opinion/x670923290/Column-Todays-politicians-could-learn-from-Eisenhower |
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Aug 14, 2011 10:22:46 GMT -5
......and doesn' take a genius to understand that if you spend money you don't have you are asking for trouble....come on man its not brain surgery!......
...and ktpelec says we have to play nice......
...so Mr Grunt .....i can play with numbers too and then add the word FACT....and then that is gospel....and the other side wrong..
....example let me cherry pick some numbers for you:
...in 1960 top individual tax rate was 91%....and Total Direct Revenue was 153.1billion
...in 2010 top individual tax rate was 35%...and Total Direct Revenue was 4.2 trillion
.....Look , the United States needs some Harry Truman-like plain speaking, instead of each administration putting off a national reckoning onto the next. Don't drill for oil and grow food — and the price for both goes up. Spend what you don't have, and later you will have to pay even more back. The generation that ran up the debt and was largely responsible for the Social Security crisis has a responsibility to make things right on its watch.
Such blunt talk is considered political suicide for candidates.... in fact, anything less for the rest of us is national suicide.
...The dilemma described above is an insoluble one for a politician whose only goal is re-election. Doing what's right in that case runs second to doing what's necessary to keep his job.
And the reality is that the public often wants to have its cake and eat it too....which is why polls are often so contradictory (and meaningless)..... With a rare amount of consistency, it seems that Americans really really want the debt to be decreased... but they also want taxes to be cut AND they refuse to part with their entitlements and pet projects.
Inconsistent? Certainly. But very human.
The question is why should they behave any differently?.... For decades, politicians of both parties have promised them the Moon, never telling them the potential cost in the long run. They have been led to believe that they can get "something for nothing" if only they elect candidate X..... And, if they can't ignore reality and get something for nothing, it is because of the evil, money-grubbing capitalists whose only goal is to suck them dry.
....Who hasn't heard a politician these days, especially from the Democratic Party, insist that the only real fiscal problem is that all those millionaires and billionaires and the rest of those "rich" people need to pay more to society? ...hell, I here it here everytime on get on this blog.....
The solution is always to "Tax the Rich!" and all will be well again.
But, the only problem with that is there just aren't enough rich people to go around:
There are lots of liberal definitions of “rich.” When Pres. Barack Obama talks about the rich, he’s talking about people living in households with income of more than $250,000 or more....Club 250K isn’t all that exclusive, and most of its members aren’t the yachts-and-expensive-mistresses types.
....Nonetheless, there aren’t that many of them. (got this from) The Census Bureau found only 2.2 million households earning more than $250,000....
But say we wanted to balance the budget by jacking up taxes on Club 250K. That’s a problem: The 2012 deficit is forecast to hit $1.1 trillion under Obama’s budget. (Thanks, Mr. President!) Spread that deficit over all the households in Club 250K and you have to jack up their taxes by an average of $500,000. Which you simply can’t do..... since a lot of them don’t have $500,000 in income to seize: Most of them are making $250,000 to $450,000 and paying about half in taxes already. You can squeeze that goose all day, but that’s not going to make it push out a golden egg......
But it's the "golden egg" mentality that is driving the liberal mantra. Since liberals don't really understand where wealth comes from, you can watch them getting angrier and angrier when they are presented with facts like the one above. The only economic policy they know is to squeeze that goose. They have never considered that at some point the goose will be completely empty of eggs--and if you keep squeezing, it will certainly expire.
Plain speaking may indeed be political suicide(tea party is getting its medicine right now by speaking out...and if it wasn't for them we woud not even be talking about cuts).... it's much easier to promise everyone what they want instead of showing real leadership and going against the polls... against the protests; and doing what is consistent with reality. STOP fucking spending!
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Post by ktpelec on Aug 14, 2011 12:34:27 GMT -5
You must have not read the past posts, all sides must give. Cut spending, especially on the largest item, the military budget, and raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans...
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Aug 14, 2011 15:22:15 GMT -5
....why not raise taxes on all americans?....better yet why not raise taxes on just democrats?
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Post by marcus on Aug 14, 2011 17:28:07 GMT -5
uknowit
I dont think the Rs or Ds are looking out for us.Thats why the tea party is getting rolling.We have been sold out with Naffta and gatt and more.
YOU can not spend more than you make period! I also agree, everyone should be taxed the same that way,we wouldnt have class warfare then and they couldnt play us all against each other.If you make 50K a year you should pay the same percent of a man making a million.Its only fair.
Do away with the IRS and save BILLIONS and go with a flat tax or usage tax.
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Post by marcus on Aug 14, 2011 17:30:45 GMT -5
Yes id cut military and Id also cut everthing else across the board.Say 10 percent or whatever it takes to balance the budget and get the debt done.If you cut it all equal then they cant buy our votes just like they do with class warfare.
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Post by uknowit on Aug 14, 2011 20:13:02 GMT -5
You mean you really don't know that the tea party is just a far right wing of republicans, as for me i support the middle class , the rich has lobbyist to support them and by the way their income is rising while the middle class is flat they do a very good job
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2011 7:59:36 GMT -5
job1, analspam, and marcus are brainwashed they don't understand that all politicians are selling us out, they are dead set on believing that republicans are there savior, their is no help for them. just let them go on with their one sided view Brainwashed??? LOL! Nah, buddy, I dont let the UAW run my life. If you follow any of my post you'd see I dont favor either party. Both parties SOLD us out. One sided view? If thinking hussein obama is a piece of shit, then yes, Iam one sided. |
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Post by marcus on Aug 15, 2011 15:47:45 GMT -5
How is the tea party Far right wing? Plese explain
Im for the middle class also but both partys sold us out and some of you guys just think its the Rs.
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Post by bo862 on Aug 15, 2011 20:36:32 GMT -5
Every ideology that the tea party has is shared with republicans. The difference between them is that the tea party refuses to compromise.
A hard core tea party member told me the only thing wrong with the republicans is that they are not conservative enough. This makes them far right.
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Aug 16, 2011 8:36:05 GMT -5
.....no increase in taxes in a recession and the tea party are far right, nazi, terrorist, etc.....lol ....Obama did not want to raise taxes in a recesion.....was he a right winger?, was he a terrorist?, was he a nazi? : Flashback: August 5, 2009--- www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2e_1310395568 |
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Post by ktpelec on Aug 16, 2011 10:11:40 GMT -5
As to the original post topic, the DOW is 11,400, NASDAQ above 2500...etc. What loss? LOL
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 11:13:21 GMT -5
As to the original post topic, the DOW is 11,400, NASDAQ above 2500...etc. What loss? LOL Too bad my 401K hasn't recovered yet. I hope everything falls back into place soon. |
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Aug 16, 2011 11:35:12 GMT -5
....at least someone gets it
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Post by marcus on Aug 16, 2011 15:31:35 GMT -5
Rs not being conservative enough is very true on alot of things.GW spent like a drunk monkey and was little lib on some things.
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