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Post by marcus on Sept 8, 2010 17:28:54 GMT -5
One huge lie these words are not in our Constitution and im sick of hearing people say it.Its pure BS and a lie we have been told.
This is how it started
Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. Letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.
Wake up and learn our history.
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Post by ktpelec on Sept 9, 2010 6:07:54 GMT -5
So it's like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus?
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Post by axleman on Sept 9, 2010 8:29:09 GMT -5
So it's like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus?[ I'm sure your just trying to be funny. You usually respond with "half way" intelligent statement, even if I disagree, or you may just be lost in "left field again. |
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Post by ktpelec on Sept 9, 2010 9:26:23 GMT -5
I don't have any idea of the true origin of the seperation of church and state, the basis for it was sooo long ago.
I do know that I do not want to be judged or have my right to the pursuit of life or liberty to be based on the religion I do or do not believe in.
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Post by axleman on Sept 9, 2010 12:23:13 GMT -5
Most of the laws that govern society where set in place "sooo long ago". Most laws draw their moral basis from one religion or another. It's the lack of religious morality that has sent this once great country of ours into the abyss. Everybody wants their way. One mans liberty may infringe on another's. There are no moral absolutes anymore, so what we end up with is chaos.
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Post by marcus on Sept 9, 2010 20:50:45 GMT -5
Great post axleman;
"I don't have any idea of the true origin of the seperation of church and state"
Well I just told you where it came from.
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Post by ktpelec on Sept 10, 2010 11:04:14 GMT -5
Great post axleman; "I don't have any idea of the true origin of the seperation of church and state" Well I just told you where it came from. I value your input here on this Forum greatly Marcus. I myself have never said that "Seperation of Church and State" was in the Constitution. You are correct in that part of Thomas Jeffersons writings being reffered to. It also states in the First Ammendment of the Constitution, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thats where it's open to a little personal interpitation. As I said before, I don't want to be judged or denied Life and Liberty by not being part of a certain religious sect. |
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Post by wplap on Sept 10, 2010 11:57:36 GMT -5
I don't mind being judged.
Is this going to be an annual thread now?
Why in the sweet mother of fuck-all would the State give a flying crucifix fuck what the Church is doing? The Church is a joke on its own, it's only when it gets intertwined with governing does it become an issue. Do you think the power junkies up on the hill care about transubstantiation versus consubstantiation...would it even matter? It's more of an issue when the Jesus freaks get their holier-than-thou clutch on shaping the laws of this country, such as gays getting married. Who really gives a shit if two women want to get married? Only the self righteous moralists who have warped their sense of importance by toting the Idiots Guide to Life..the bible.
Leave it to Christians to ruin Christianity.
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Post by ktpelec on Sept 10, 2010 16:21:04 GMT -5
I don't mind being judged. Is this going to be an annual thread now? Why in the sweet mother of fuck-all would the State give a flying crucifix fuck what the Church is doing? The Church is a joke on its own, it's only when it gets intertwined with governing does it become an issue. Do you think the power junkies up on the hill care about transubstantiation versus consubstantiation...would it even matter? It's more of an issue when the Jesus freaks get their holier-than-thou clutch on shaping the laws of this country, such as gays getting married. Who really gives a shit if two women want to get married? Only the self righteous moralists who have warped their sense of importance by toting the Idiots Guide to Life..the bible. Leave it to Christians to ruin Christianity. The judge I referred to was the court itself, as in the Law. |
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Post by marcus on Sept 10, 2010 18:11:57 GMT -5
wplap dont know what your post has to do with this thread.
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Post by wplap on Sept 11, 2010 11:33:56 GMT -5
D'oh!!!
Let's just chalk it up to a crazy rant. Now back to your usual nonsense!
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Post by jobs1stb4polarbear on Sept 11, 2010 14:49:11 GMT -5
These social liberals believe man has the only answers for himself. They think that perhaps a new, man-made spirituality eventually may be useful in managing the populace .....but frankly would prefer that it not be a moralistic religion with rules or absolute right and wrong. They certainly do not want the new society they are molding to hang onto any "biased" religion that proclaims Jesus Christ is the Only Way (John 14:6) or that all men and women are called by their Creator to have a warm, personal relationship with Him. We Christians irritate these social liberals when we proclaim the truth of God's liberating love. We infuriate them when we remind them of our Lord's true and steadfast faithfulness.
For those who know the Bible, this does not surprise us because Jesus told us...
"All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." [Matthew 10:22]
Having said all that, I say this.....we are all sinners and even I, the Angel on FoMoCo falls into temptation, many,many time before. That is why I do not have a problem with two chics getting married or for that matter, going at it, hell I would film it....HOT!!!
BUT, I have to draw the line somewhere,.....the thought of two men getting married, fuck that....NASTY!!!....Wplap,you can film them!....lol.....
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Post by nvsked1 on Sept 11, 2010 15:25:42 GMT -5
Great post axleman; "I don't have any idea of the true origin of the seperation of church and state" Well I just told you where it came from. Thomas Paine... History of the Separation of Church and State in America By image - March 27, 2004 The topic of Separation of Church and State has obviously become a hot one in America with both the Supreme Court case regarding the inclusion of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and President George Bush's promotion of his "faith based initiative" along with his overtly religious tone. It's not just George Bush though, several other public officials have voiced either support for more inclusion of religion in government affairs, or have spoken in opposition to restoring the tradition of secularism to the State arena. Throughout all this it has been obvious that this is a topic that many of us citizens feel strongly about, and it's obvious, therefore, that this is a topic which merits some real national debate. Before a debate can take place though, all those involved have to be educated and knowledgeable about the topic being debated, and unfortunately neither our public officials nor the media at large are presenting an honest and factual case to the public about the facts that are in question. Again and again we hear the claim that "America is a Christian nation founded on Christianity." When the question as to whether "under God" should be included in the Pledge of Allegiance is raised, claims are made even by the highest level officials, such as judges, Senators and the President, that the proof that "under God" belongs in the Pledge is plain to see since "In God We Trust" is on our money, and we have "God" referenced in federal oaths, and other things of this nature.... American president John Adams stated: "Without the pen of Paine the sword of Washington would have been wielded in vain." Excerpts from the "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine Paine went on to give his opinion of religion: "I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. But, lest it should be supposed that I believe in many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them. I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." The book is available online .... P.S. Technically though, neither Thomas Paine, despite the fact that without him America as we know it would likely not exist, nor Ethan Allen were founders of the United States in that they were neither signers of the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution. That leads us to the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. |
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Post by nvsked1 on Sept 11, 2010 15:58:39 GMT -5
One huge lie these words are not in our Constitution and im sick of hearing people say it.Its pure BS and a lie we have been told. This is how it started Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. Letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business. Wake up and learn our history. There is often debate about what exactly the First Amendment means, however, in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, Thomas Jefferson made clear that the purpose of the First Amendment was to establish a "wall of separation" between Church and State in order to protect individuals' right of conscience: There are four references to a deity found in the Declaration of Independence, which was primarily co-authored by Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, both friends of Thomas Paine. Those phrases are: "Nature's God," "Creator," "Supreme Judge," and "Divine Providence." Specifically, the Declaration starts out: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. The Declaration of Independence clearly asserts earthly authority, the words "Laws of Nature" are even capitalized. In addition to reading the usage of the word God in context, it is also important to understand the Declaration in its own historical context. Furthermore, Benjamin Franklin was a self-declared Deist and it was he who made the final edits to the document. The Declaration of Independence would have been clearly recognizable as deistic at the time it was written. The Declaration did not, for example, state: "In the name of The Lord God Jesus Christ," as would have been a much more traditional reference to the Christian God in a manner that was used by Europeans at the time. |
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Post by kessinger on Sept 11, 2010 19:27:38 GMT -5
Marcus you are correct the constitution does not say seperation of church and state. It says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
I think the whole idea was to keep the power of America with the people and not have that power co-mingled with the church as much of Europe had been. If the people use their vote to elect officials that have their same Religous values, then good the system is working. But, if you allow the government to dictate religion to the people, then you are taking power and freedom away from the people.
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Post by marcus on Sept 11, 2010 22:36:22 GMT -5
You are correct kessinger thats my whole point,people try to make it sound like its a Law seperation of church and state.It doesnt say we cant have a cross on say a state capital building.
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Post by nvsked1 on Sept 12, 2010 1:06:19 GMT -5
But, if you allow the government to dictate religion to the people, then you are taking power and freedom away from the people. Very good Kennsiger! |
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Post by nvsked1 on Sept 12, 2010 1:18:23 GMT -5
You are correct kessinger thats my whole point,people try to make it sound like its a Law seperation of church and state.It doesnt say we cant have a cross on say a state capital building. A cross is a symbol of christian religion....What Thomas Paine was saying (and the reason I quoted Paine) by allowing a cross you are indirectly advocating "christian religion" the Constitution (Bill of Rights) is for all American citizens....not everyone worships the same way....hence the separation of church and state....Give a Jewish person a cross, may not go over well |
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Post by marcus on Sept 12, 2010 17:28:23 GMT -5
We are founded on christian religion and just the idea of marrage is a christian idea and many of our laws are founded on being christian.
You read about our founding fathers(not just a few QUATES)Ive read and have many books on our founding fathers.Our rights are God Given period.You cant take him out of it.
They just said the State shall not make it a law to be one religion and one only.Nothing wrong with a cross on a building or having christmas at the white house etc..
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