Can You Handle The TRUTH?

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

Here's The Only Chart You Need To See To Understand Why The US Is Screwed....

www.businessinsider.com/usa-inc-2010-income-statement

[ktpelec]

The word "Truth" doesn't always apply to whats posted on this internet! LOL
I have seen several of these types of comparisons, the percentages are somewhat skewed one way or the other depending on who is doing the reporting.
It's no secret that Americans from all walks of life (rich and poor) have figured out how to take from the system without putting into it. Roughly less than 50% of working age Americans contribute to the Tax base, it was more than 90% after WW2.
Defense, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicade, in that order, are the largest costs to the system.

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

I tried, not to believe it since the source was: The White House Office of Management and Budget....

[ktpelec]

It was an article by Mary Meeker, a business analyist who works for Kliener Perkins, an Investment Firm. Just someone else who has thier own opinion of the information.
www.businessinsider.com/mary-meeker-usa-inc-february-24-2011-2

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

......I like the way you think!.....discredit the messenger.....The source she used for her chart/numbers...was the Obama White House budget office.....and I can understand why you don't believe them since Obama is not the saint you hoped , he would be....I know is a dissapointment that he is no walking on water, but I'll take Obama at his word on these numbers.....

How's your hopey and changey now?

....and please lets not visit the Wonderful World of Denial....

[ktpelec]

No dis-crediting here just questioning the percentages. I am all for making "Defense" more accountable. Changes need to be made in Social Security, health care costs are crippling Medicare and Medicade...and the population of this great country continues to grow and age.

If the U.S. ever obtains this Holy Grail of a "Balanced Budget" this great Nirvana in the sky...will the middle class get anything from it? Will the taxes go down signifigantly? Will prices drop on essential commodities, like food, and energy? Will our quality of life be better?
Or will the great corporate steamroller continue to gobble up all the wealth, and widen the gap between the working class (poor) and the controlling class (rich)?? Once the genie is out of the bottle you can't put him back.

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

gobble up wealth?......

..Why do we pick on the rich people? I plan to become one someday and does that mean you guys are going to pick on me? Let's think about how rich people make their money, not the ones that just inherited it. Rich people do things. They create a product that needs to be manufactured (jobs), shipped (jobs), and sold ( jobs). Rich people invent things which leads us all to an easier life and again makes jobs.

.once again,....Where do the Rich keep(do) with their money?.....they do not keep it under a matress

[ktpelec]

You seem to deny the well supported fact that 1% of the U.S. population controls the vast majority of the available wealth, and that the gap between this small percentage and the other 99% continues to grow. The reasons for this are many but the ability to sway the U.S. law makers is one of the reasons.

The words "rich" and "poor" are quiet vauge, I don't know where the exact line is drawn. Myself I am so much more "rich" than many others in my own family, and many more working class Americans. I believe the reasons for this are my vocational education, available opportunities, and the ability for me to unionize with others of my skill set.
"Rich people do things" is a very broad stereotyping statement. Small businesses employ way more Americans than large corporations, yet we all have seen what happens to small businesses when large corporations set thier sites on a certain market, think Wal-Mart here.
"Rich people invent things" What do you mean, only "rich" people have enough intellegence to invent? LMAO Or perhaps "rich" people have the ability to profit from other peoples ideas. A lot of times these profits come from taking advantage of the employees making the products. Sure a lot of "rich" people do start companies, many of them not here in America.

[bo862]

The rich do not get richer by giving their money away. They get it by investing in something that is going to give them more than they invested. Even if they start a business that hires people, they will pay their employees next to nothing while they earn loads from other Americans, increasing wealth for the rich. In other words, they use money to make more money.

When you give them tax breaks, that money becomes extra resources for them to make more money from consumers. They have stolen the idea of Robin Hood, gave it a pretty name of “trickle down” and convinced large masses that it is good for them.

If you do not understand this concept of using money to take more money from other people, it is not likely that you will attain richdom, and if you do, it will not last long.


“Several examples show this. First, a good part of the money the rich save from taxes is then lent by them to the government (in the form of buying US Treasury securities for their personal investment portfolios). It would obviously be better for the government to tax the rich to maintain its expenditures, and thereby avoid deficits and debts. Then the government would not need to tax the rest of us to pay interest on those debts to the rich”


www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/mar/01/us-taxation-public-finance

Btw jobs, look at the numbers outside of the little highlighted area, there is plenty more info than just what is pointed out to you. I’ll try to get back to that when I get more time.

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

....What does the rich do with their money?

....Rich = Jobs ....Honestly, I don't care, as long as they put it in something making money not under a matress.....Fuck they can leave it in their bank(jobs)that way the bank can lend more money(jobs)( how do you think banks make money...but with money they get from consumers) ......they can use it for ....Arms dealing(jobs), Lobbying(jobs),exploitation(jobs), investing(jobs), Wal-mart(jobs), Union(jobs)....as long as jobs are being created, I don't care...., but when you have a government that wants to fuck them up the ass when they spend it to make more....well they will just sit on it...
....Im going way off track here....

.....Where do you think the improvement and productivity come from?......by the investment by people of their savings


....the well being of ordinary people, has been the main thing that has been improve, by economic progress and economic development...As of 1970, for example, only about a third of American homes had both central heating and air conditioning, while more than four-fifths had both in the 1990s. Moreover, the homes themselves were more than one-third larger.

Just over one-fourth of American households had a dishwasher in 1970 but more than half did by the 1990s. Only 34 percent of households had color television in 1970 but 98 percent did in the 1990s.

How could this be, with lower real wages? Were we just going deeper and deeper into debt? Actually the net worth of Americans more than doubled during those same years.

Was there some kind of economic Houdini who could perform such magic? People with money.....the evil RICH

[bo862]

Exactly… by creating more low paying jobs to replace the good jobs shipped overseas they have taken up more of the wealth in America, leaving less for us and more for them… so while inflation continues to gain pace we will eventually be unable to buy all of those pretty little appliances.

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

"Leaving less for us" Lol .......bo,bo,bo,bo,bo862.... There is plenty of wealth out there...one just have to get of their ass and go get it.....Read books authored by rich people, to find out how they did it. They had the same 24hours in a day as you have.....time is money! ......though I do have to warn you!....almost all of them are extremly discouriging....they talk alot about their failures....going broke, etc... but they kept at it......ever and over agian.....

....many people have lost that mentality here in the US..... they think they have the right to happines.....but that is not what are forefathers intended.....it still amazes me today....how over 200years ago, middle age white men came up and added the word PERSUIT......

.....That you have the right to life,liberty, and the PERSUIT of happiness.....

...Please lets stop whining and complaining about the rich..... and go and get happy! ....

.....ooh, almost forgot, go and get happy without taking money from my wallet!

[bo862]

It is amazing how you can pick the least significant statement, use it to claim that anyone who is not rich is because they refuse to get off the couch, and that we are whining about the rich getting into our wallets. All the while ignoring the facts or questions of any importance. Whatever school system has instructed you in politics has outdone themselves, you are a true politician in spirit if not in occupation.

From your last statement it sounds as if you are either rich or a wannabe. If that is the case, it explains why you argue your position and why you argue so hard for the rich...because you know it will be a greater advantage for you.

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

Wow, you are slow......I agreed with everything you said, except the part about less wealth......I,ve said this in the pass before....but when you are on a smart phone....you can't write a fucking novel in here......yes, low paying jobs/jobs over seas....(its a global market place...we are in compitition with everything(goods,service,JOBS)....blah,blah,blah.....there is nothing you can do about it, not evening taxing the rich....hell even OBAMA gets it, not to tax the rich too much(he would love to, though, but cant).....he needs them to spend(create jobs).......that brings us to inflation, (which I agree, dont go crazy on me)
....Obama/government needs more money....and if he cant tax the rich, he just spends(prints money,stimulus,etc...) which creates inflation......thats a big government secret that many people dont know or understand(its how to tax the people without them knowing about it)......it is sometimes refered to Taxation without Legislation......the best statement I',ve seen to explain it is:

"Inflation is is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time." Governments do this in an attempt to offset the money they owe to other countries or their citizens. This way, they are decreasing the value of their citizens cash, in a way "taxing" them without actually saying so.

......and to fix this, is not raising taxes(on anybody!), but to stop spending!

.....again we are broke..

[bo862]

Slow… perhaps I am getting slow, maybe you could point out where you agreed with anything I have said.

I’m curious, have you had a chance to look at anything outside of what was pointed out to you?

Ktpelec, I didn’t mean to butt you out of the conversation. I thought maybe explaining it a little different may help.

[ktpelec]

Be my guest Bo, I have enjoyed your posts. I would like to add these perspectives.

It's no secret that boosting corporate profits no longer translates into shared prosperity. Many private-sector companies have gone to extraordinary lengths in recent years to effectively eliminate the freedom of workers to come together to bargain to lift living standards. That's one reason middle-class wages have stagnated since the 1970s, and why the U.S. is at risk of becoming an hourglass economy—one with all the income at the top and people at the bottom.

The business climate couldn't be stronger. Corporate profits reached an annualized level of $1.7 trillion in the third quarter of 2010, the highest figure since the government began keeping statistics 60 years.

It wasn't teachers or firefighters or nurses who crashed the stock market and caused the recession that led to millions of layoffs and foreclosures. It was the so-called engine of our economy—Wall Street—which has suffered no consequence after nearly destroying the global financial system in 2008. Wall Street bonuses averaged over $128,000 per person in 2010, more than six times the average pension for a retired public-service worker in Wisconson.

But average citizens have little interest in taking away workers' rights. According to a CBS/New York Times survey, Americans support bargaining rights for public workers by a nearly two-to-one margin. Despite their best efforts, governors like Scott Walker haven't convinced Americans that public workers are at fault for state budget woes.

[Deleted]

I will just leave this here:


washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/01/kochs-vs-soros-free-markets-vs-state-coercion

[ktpelec]

This an interesting addition to the Topic here Anal, great post.
It would appear to me that some of the top 1% of the American population, the ones with all the wealth, can play both sides of our 2 party government equally well.

[Deleted]

Mar 4, 2011 12:41:28 GMT -5 ktpelec said:

This an interesting addition to the Topic here Anal, great post.
It would appear to me that some of the top 1% of the American population, the ones with all the wealth, can play both sides of our 2 party government equally well.

Its sad that we let money control both sides of our goverment.
We all point fingers at one another ( the left and the right) but in reality, its both parties fault for the failure of our system. Capitalism works well if its controlled well. But when we let the big corporations put money in our senators pockets, that just poisons the water.

[jobs1stb4polarbear]

.....like a child...

We live in a therapeutic age, one in which the old tragic view of our ancestors has been replaced by prolonged adolescence. Adolescents hold adult notions of consumption: they understand the comfort of a pricey car; they appreciate the status conveyed by a particular sort of handbag or sunglasses,they sense how outward consumption and refined tastes can translate into popularity and envy,and they appreciate how a slogan or world view can win acceptance among peers without worry over its validity. But they have no adult sense of acquisition, themselves not paying taxes, balancing the family budget, or worrying about household insurance, maintenance, or debt. Theirs is a world view of today or tomorrow, not of next year or even of next week.

So adolescents throw fits when denied a hip sweater or a trip to Disneyland, concluding that it is somehow “unfair” or “mean,” without concern about the funds available to grant their agendas. We see now just that adolescent mind in Wisconsin “They” surely can come up with the money from someone (“the rich”) somehow to pay teachers and public servants what they deserve. And what they deserve is determined not by comparable rates in private enterprise, or by market value (if the DMV clerk loses a job, does another public bureau or private company inevitably seize the opportunity to hire such a valuable worker at comparable or improved wages?), or by results produced (improved test scores, more applicants processed in an office, overhead reduced, etc.), or by what the strapped state is able to provide, but by what is deemed to be necessary to ensure an upper-middle class lifestyle.That is altogether understandable and decent, but it is entirely adolescent in a globalized economy.---(because this was sent to my email, I do not know the author, sorry)

....but lets add to it...

.....Those of us with teens in the household see the adolescent dynamic on a daily basis. My daughter and almost all of her friends fit the description at least part of the time..... The few who have broken out of this mindset--i.e., accepted the responsibility of adulthood--are generally those who have had to do so by events; i.e., because of real world problems facing their families. It's tough to get a teen to "grow up" when life is so easy and they don't really have to be responsible. Often the goal is just to get them out of the house so they can begin to appreciate what the "real" world is actually like.

.....In a way, the childlike, irresponsible attitude of today's adolescents is a reflection of our attempts as parents to shield them from the real world..... to give them a better life than we ourselves may have had.....to limit the hardships and even the pain we might have experienced when we were their age. They are clueless about the real world because we have protected their childlike innocence. However flawed that attitude might be on our part, our hope is that once they do leave the nest, they will (hopefully) have learned everything necessary to be resilient enought to cope with the real world.

As they will have to....as long as we don't bail them out over and over again when they screw up (which they will).

I only wish we, the taxpayers, were dealing with real adolescents, instead of the grownup variety that seem to populate our political class....particularly on the Democratic side of the aisle.

....At least then we might have some small modicum of hope that they might grow up when forced to face the real world.

Unfortunately, we are not dealing with innocent adolescents (although they are behaving as badly and irresponsibly).... we are dealing with adolescent...or rather, INFANTILE..... denial that are being used by individual ADULTS and and enabling political parties.

....The adolescent-adults of our political class have little incentive to grow up, since they believe that "the rich" will always be there to rescue them from their own poor judgement and self-destructive behavior.... All they have to do is tax those "rich" people more and more and more... and then they can overspend, overindulge, and party like there's no tomorrow.

....Whenever the taxpayer loudly complains and says, "ENOUGH!"..... they become sullen and ungrateful, muttering darkly about how they're doing it "for the children" (which, when you think about it, they are since they ARE the children in this picture)... or bringing up the old reliable Marxist class warfare scenario to justify their adolescent rantings.

....These guys and gals are not just grownup, oversized adolescents; they are PERPETUALLY and ENTIRELY ADOSESCENT in their worldview and mindset.

God help us.

[bo862]

That is a great topic anal. I would hate to see it buried in a partisan discussion as a side note. Any chance you would like to start another thread, based on that article?

[bo862]

Sorry for the long delay, I have been busy. Now back to your graph… my assumption from the highlighted area is that you see this graph as evidence that SSI, unemployment and Medicare are the best fix for our current financial situation.

SSI collects $865B and currently hands out $707B. Removing this benefit would reduce the governments’ income by 158B. This would be a bad idea; it would only run up a larger deficit.

Medicare has the largest single share. We “could” cut it and assist a few other social problems like overpopulation and relieve some of the pressure on social security… a bit barbaric, even for republicans. Let’s look at it from a different perspective. Healthcare costs are the fastest growing cost in the nation, outpacing all other forms of industry including education. That is a result of the healthcare industry knowing that people will pay top dollar to stay alive and healthy. The least they could do is slow down their profits for a year or two to help citizens and the budget. The biggest problem with medicare is excessive rising costs. Fix that and the rest of it will be manageable.

Lets look at the other side now. 81% of the revenue comes from SSI and Income tax, 9% comes from corporations. Unions have made concessions across the country for their employers. Americans paid to keep some of the largest industries earning their quarterly profits. If the biggest moneymakers paid their share of taxes, we would probably have a surplus. There is no reason that corporations should not pay their share of taxes to help our economy.


Unemployment… sure go ahead and take benefits away from 10 million + Americans. That would provide such a pool of pissed off citizens that we could easily have enough people to rotate shifts to keep the capitals of Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio shut down until the republicans learn to listen to the citizens. From what I recall though, unemployment was to prevent large masses of people from protesting during economic down turns. Get rid of this at your own risk.